I really, REALLY, hope your answer to the subject line will be: "Yes, everybody does, duh!". Otherwise, I'll have to work on my technique or my grinders; and I'd rather not!

I'll be brief in the hope your answer will be positive. On a couple of my grinders, the following applies to different coffees(artisan blends, SO home roasts, fresh dark&oily ash), machines(58mm commercial HX, 43mm-ish lever) and different pressures & temps, I noticed the following narrow sweet spots:

My Super Jolly for VacPot
Around a certain spot, I get a medium-coarse grind with the least amount of fines and the resulting pots are far superior to when going a bit finer or coarser.

My Versalab for espresso
Amazing shots happen around the 20g mark and the 12g mark. Between 14-18g, it almost always brings the worst in coffee and masks the best.

For all I know(and hope!), this is something everybody is well aware of and I just missed it somehow.....please say yes!

IMO, there is an espresso no-mans-land between fine & low and coarse & high. The better the grinder, the narrower the region and less dramatic the edges.

Sorry. C_O_N_I_C_A_L.

The burrs move past each other, not towards each other, when you adjust the grind, so the sweet spots are huge

So far I'm getting "yes, grinders have sweet spots". I know that's what I hoped to hear; but it also is a confirmation that my Versalab's 15g doubles will never be amazing -- sad, really.

But how come nobody says: "my grinder doesn't do 18g well", and instead they say: "my machine doesn't like to be updosed"? I dunno, this confirmation opens the door for so many questions* that I'm starting to think we're not talking about the same thing. Really? Narrow sweet spots?





*e.g.

- Why isn't this commonly discussed? I never came across such a discussion, I even searched!
- Does the "location" of such sweet spots change when one replaces burrs?
- Do we know why these exist?

another_jim wrote:Sorry. C_O_N_I_C_A_L.

The burrs move past each other, not towards each other, when you adjust the grind, so the sweet spots are huge

Howler Alert : If the burrs moved past each other, the grind would never change.

Assuming an equivalent pitch on the movable carrier, the burrs move an identical vertical distance for the same rotation.

Conicals are great grinders, but it's got nothing to do with the distance the burrs move. It has more to do with slower rotation, different cutting geometry, different bean cracking and fine generation. In a conical, the coffee drops into the maw and then from the burrs, rather than requiring inertia to move the coffee through the burrs.

And, oh yeah, my C_O_N_I_C_A_L exhibits the same no mans land, it's just narrower than the planar.

coffee.me wrote:But how come nobody says: "my grinder doesn't do 18g well", and instead they say: "my machine doesn't like to be updosed"? I dunno, this confirmation opens the door for so many questions* that I'm starting to think we're not talking about the same thing. Really? Narrow sweet spots?

I frequently find a dose suffers a meltdown and requires a drastic change, even though the identical dose on a similar coffee was delish. An e61 is very tolerant of overdosing, but sometimes I have to go from 9 to 7.5g or 12g to stop the meltdowns. Some coffees don't care anywhere from 8 to 9, whereas some are very fussy about 8.5±0.2g. I may have to adjust the temperature from 202° to 198° or ???. It's a continuum and it's impossible to adjust one thing in isolation.

coffee.me wrote:So far I'm getting "yes, grinders have sweet spots". I know that's what I hoped to hear; but it also is a confirmation that my Versalab's 15g doubles will never be amazing -- sad, really.

Why would anyone care? If it's a 15g double and nothing else, buy a coffee and a machine that gives amazing shots at those parameter. Don't be surprised if everything else goes pear shaped.

One of my favorite bar coffees is 20g triple ground on a Robur-E pulled on a Synesso to 60ml @ 202.5°F. If I try anything like that, it's hopeless. Around 8g @ 198.5°F on the MC4 and HX to about 20ml results in an equally delicious, and very similar tasting, shot.

Entirely too much rote and unwillingness to experiment pervades the espresso culture. How many times have we read "I kept the dose @ [the mythical number of grams]..." as someone wails about their meltdowns If a good shot can't be had from 7-12 or 12-20g, "It's the coffee, stupid"

"Sciences may be learned by rote, but wisdom not."
Laurence Sterne

cafeIKE wrote:Assuming an equivalent pitch on the movable carrier, the burrs move an identical vertical distance for the same rotation.

Played hooky during trignometry? The more inclined toward the vertical the burrs are, the more they have to move up and down to come closer to each other. It's really hard to miss this when using two Mazzers with identically threaded burr carriers. The 12 to 18 gram dosing range on the Kony or Robur runs about 15/100 turn whereas it runs about 5/100 on a Jolly.

I'm unpersuaded by all these posts. The poorer grinders had sweet spots for all coffees on my TGP tests; none of the good grinders, including the Jolly, did. Coffees obviously have sweet spots. If this post is describing sweet spots on grinders when dealing with a limited range of coffees, it is hugely deceptive. If all you do is comfort food blend and light roasted SOs, your sweet spots will be 12-13 and 18-20 grams even on the ultimate grinder at the end of rainbow.

So the grind surface perpendicular spacing changing at 86% of the vertical displacement is what makes conicals better? Who knew. Give us a break

My post was about a no mans land with a usable range at either end. As was the OP. What part of "Amazing shots happen around the 20g mark and the 12g mark." is unclear?

another_jim wrote:If all you do is comfort food blend and light roasted SOs, your sweet spots will be 12-13 and 18-20 grams even on the ultimate grinder at the end of rainbow.

Gee, is that with the 57mm / 1600rpm planar or the 63mm / 350rpm conical Does that mean Ken's hopelessly lost @ 14.5g e61, A3,GS/3, MCaL, Europiccola... sheesh

I've noticed this as well, on my very small conical i-Mini. The range between too fine and too coarse flow-wise is about 2 turns on the dial, but the good stuff taste-wise is less than a quarter tune in the middle of that. The fact that the i-mini clumps like crazy and that the ideal grind is an ever-changing target on the La Pavoni doesn't make things better. Hopefully the clump issue and some of the grind setting issue is alleviated with the upgrade to the M7 (75mm flat burr).

coffee.me wrote:Amazing shots happen around the 20g mark and the 12g mark. Between 14-18g, it almost always brings the worst in coffee and masks the best.

Interesting, and a bit confusing. When I speak of the grinder sweet spot, I'm referring to grind setting, not dose. Grinders with large sweet spots (typically titan conicals) are more forgiving of grind setting, and require less finicky adjustments than grinders with small sweet spots. You seem to use one definition (grind setting) when discussing vac pot, but a different one (dose) for espresso.

I'm really surprised to read these comments about dose. The vast majority of my doubles are pulled at doses in the 14-18g range, which I consider to be ideal for most normale doubles. Are you seriously suggesting that it's impossible to pull a good 15g shot with certain grinders? Maybe I'm having an attack of the stupids, but that makes no sense to me at all. Dose should be associated with the espresso machine (basket and grouphead geometry, brew water temp and pressure, etc.), not the grinder.

My thoughts exactly, I can't really see how the dose would affect the grinders ability to produce a certain range of particle sizes. One caveat would be if it's related to the infamous bean-column, but that could be dealt with by filling the hopper properly.

Jim simply commented that with conicals you get more of an adjustment sweet spot, so it's easier to dial in what you want to get the extraction/taste profile right. Smaller planar grinders require a minute change compared to a large conical.

I don't remember him stating that was the whole story.

And I agree with John, about not confusing the effects of grind and dose. Let's face it, Anfim have just built their brand around that.

Stuggi: if you are getting inconsistent performance from your Europiccola with the same fresh beans and the weather is fairly stable at the moment, you need to take a look at:

distribution
grind
tamping

and probably in that order.

Cheers

Mike

RapidCoffee wrote:Interesting, and a bit confusing. When I speak of the grinder sweet spot, I'm referring to grind setting, not dose. . . . .You seem to use one definition (grind setting) when discussing vac pot, but a different one (dose) for espresso.

Let me make sure this is clear, when I say "20g mark", I basically mean the grinder setting that gives me a dose of 20g with the correct flow. So, it's always grind setting for both VacPot on the SJ and espresso on the Versalab.

RapidCoffee wrote:I'm really surprised to read these comments about dose. The vast majority of my doubles are pulled at doses in the 14-18g range, which I consider to be ideal for most normale doubles. Are you seriously suggesting that it's impossible to pull a good 15g shot with certain grinders? Maybe I'm having an attack of the stupids, but that makes no sense to me at all. Dose should be associated with the espresso machine (basket and grouphead geometry, brew water temp and pressure, etc.), not the grinder.

EXACTLY! And that's why I'm posting my question. Let' me rephrase: why do my 14-18g grind setting shots suck compared to my shots with the grinder set on the 12g or 20g position, even when using different machines, extraction profiles and coffees? Also on the SJ VacPots: why do I get more fines when I go slightly finer or coarser than a certain mid-coarse setting? Is it only me? Did this happen to someone else and they fixed it somehow?

Stuggi wrote:I can't really see how the dose would affect the grinders ability to produce a certain range of particle sizes.

Me neither! But I have no other explanation as this is consistent with different machines, extraction profiles and coffees! Any guesses?

another_jim wrote:If all you do is comfort food blend and light roasted SOs, your sweet spots will be 12-13 and 18-20 grams even on the ultimate grinder at the end of rainbow.

Can you please elaborate? I have a dark&oily ash Guatemala on hand that tastes like ash around the 16g mark on my Versalab; when I change the grinder setting to the 20g mark, I get no ash whatsoever, only slight sweetness and caramel. Such improvement also applies to other coffees --but I mentioned that earlier.

cafeIKE wrote:I frequently find a dose suffers a meltdown and requires a drastic change, even though the identical dose on a similar coffee was delish.

To clarify, just in case, correct flow is not the issue here, this whole thread is only about taste.

michaelbenis wrote:Stuggi: if you are getting inconsistent performance from your Europiccola with the same fresh beans and the weather is fairly stable at the moment, you need to take a look at:

distribution
grind
tamping

and probably in that order.

Cheers

Mike

That was my idea at first, but my first shot is always in the same ballpark, then it moves a tad coarser every shot after that in the same session. Maybe I don't let it heat up enough...

Let me make myself very clear.

In the TGP, I noticed that the smaller burr grinders measured up better at standard Italian doses than at higher doses. This is not surprising, since the grinders, along with the machines and baskets, are designed to operate at these doses. Basically, the big conicals do markedly better when taken beyond their design parameters.

But if you get amazing taste at 14 and 20 grams, but not between, I simply cannot see how it's the grinder, basket, or machine. The coffee is the only thing that's non-linear enough to cause this.

Finally, if you get amazing flow at 14 and 20 grams, get a big conical or work on your levelling.

And, Ian, I would dearly love to give you a break; especially at all the times when you opine based on what appears to be zero experience.

coffee.me wrote:To clarify, just in case, correct flow is not the issue here, this whole thread is only about taste.

In that case, Jim is right on target:

another_jim wrote:If all you do is comfort food blend and light roasted SOs, your sweet spots will be 12-13 and 18-20 grams even on the ultimate grinder at the end of rainbow.

I hope Jim will forgive this elaboration.

Lightly roasted, acidic beans may make a lovely vac pot, but produce an overly sour espresso. Downdosing allows you to use these beans for SO espressos.

Some espresso blends tend towards the chocolate/vanilla/caramel taste spectrum, rather than the fruity acidic side, These are often referred to as "comfort food" espressos, and in many cases are designed for updosing.

So again: dose has little to do with the grinder, but a lot to do with the espresso machine and (as Jim pointed out) the type of coffee bean.

coffee.me wrote:My Versalab for espresso
Amazing shots happen around the 20g mark and the 12g mark. Between 14-18g, it almost always brings the worst in coffee and masks the best.

I cannot pull 20 gram shots with the Dalla Corte. 18 is the maximum. And I get great shots at 17 to 18 grams with the Versalab depending on the coffee. So part of what is happening may be the characteristics of the grinder and espresso machine together and not just the grinder alone.

Totally agree, Hal.

I also get very different results with different beans - not so much in terms of optimal grind setting so much as in acceptable dose range.

I'm drinking an Ethiopian Bale Wild Bean at the moment that is brilliant (though quite different) at anything from a 7g single to 14g+ ristretto. Londinum have roasted it just 1 degree lighter and it's even better.

I got similar interesting variations and versatility from a Javan SO I was drinking 10 days or so ago.

Both beans also have a very evident "superior" sweet spot, but are fairly forgivable on grind.

Conversely, a Peruvian SO I was drinking in between the two really only gave its best when dosed towards the upper end of the scale. It also had a wide acceptable grind range with well-delineated sweet spot (you didn't have to think twice about whether you were there).

Sometimes sweeping generalisations raise so much dust it's difficult to see clearly

Stuggi wrote:That was my idea at first, but my first shot is always in the same ballpark, then it moves a tad coarser every shot after that in the same session. Maybe I don't let it heat up enough...

I'm not sure what you mean? You have to loosen up the grind, is that what you are saying?