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Working with my new La Cimbali Max Hybrid - Page 11

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Link to "Working with my new La Cimbali Max Hybrid"by zin1953 on Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:11 pm

1) I checked again today when I was at work -- move everything I said up a notch: 1.5-2.0, never more than 2.5.Image

2) I have never the problem(s) you seem to be experiencing. Sorry.
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Link to "Working with my new La Cimbali Max Hybrid"by cafeIKE on Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:53 pm

Is the grinder stock? No throat or deflector mods?

What weight of coffee are you dosing? Try doing 15g and adjusting the grind to give std volume in 30s

How oily is the coffee?
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Link to "Working with my new La Cimbali Max Hybrid"by portamento on Fri Mar 27, 2009 5:49 pm

Ian,

1. Grinder is stock.
2. I have weighed out 14g-16g with a very light tamp and 20-30 second shot. Result: over-extraction, early blonding. I attribute this to channeling.
3. No surface oils on the coffee.

Thanks,
Ryan
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Link to "Working with my new La Cimbali Max Hybrid"by cafeIKE on Fri Mar 27, 2009 5:58 pm

What's your brew pressure?
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Link to "Working with my new La Cimbali Max Hybrid"by portamento on Sat Mar 28, 2009 1:23 pm

The internal brew pressure gauge on the Andreja Premium reads about 9.2 BAR during the course of a shot, and against the blind filter. I do not have an external portafilter-mounted gauge.

I have been getting better results this morning using the Stockfleth's Move to even out the density of the puck. I think this confirms my feelings that bad distribution has been the culprit. So far, the Cimbali Max Hybrid takes more effort at puck preparation so far than my Mazzer Mini, which is a great disappointment to me.

I have a theory about the clumping: Micro-fines generated by the new burrs create cohesion between the coarser particles. I have run about 4 pounds of coffee through so far. Perhaps after 100 or 200 pounds, these burrs will be broken in enough to not produce clumps. I don't know if I have the patience to test that theory. Nor am I thrilled about having to become an expert at redistributing the puck by hand.
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Link to "Working with my new La Cimbali Max Hybrid"by portamento on Sat Mar 28, 2009 2:16 pm

I am getting repeatable results at the moment at a 16g dose, which seems to be just the right headroom for my e61 grouphead. I'm grinding at 2.25 from "true zero." The grind is still clumpy so I am using the Stockfleth's Move.

The taste is very similar to the Mini. But I'm having to work harder for it.
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Link to "Working with my new La Cimbali Max Hybrid"by Ken Fox on Sun Mar 29, 2009 11:47 am

portamento wrote:I am getting repeatable results at the moment at a 16g dose, which seems to be just the right headroom for my e61 grouphead. I'm grinding at 2.25 from "true zero." The grind is still clumpy so I am using the Stockfleth's Move.

The taste is very similar to the Mini. But I'm having to work harder for it.


If that is the case, there is something wrong with either your coffee, your equipment, or your technique. The grinds that come out of the Max Hybrid, like those that come out of a commercial conical, are in an altogether different league than what comes out of a Mazzer Mini.

Properly ground Max grinds are incredibly easy to deal with; the machine is hugely less finicky as regards grind setting than a planar grinder in the class of a MM, and the resultant beverages are consistently better (this is not to say that the best shot you will ever get out of a MM is worse than your average shot out of the Max, however your best shots out of a MM class grinder will be few and far between).

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Link to "Working with my new La Cimbali Max Hybrid"by portamento on Sun Mar 29, 2009 5:01 pm

I'm glad you joined the conversation, Ken. Posts by you and Jason were hugely influential in my purchase decision.

It is hard to compare our experiences since you home roast and I suspect our taste expectations diverge. Most of my espresso exposure has been of the "third wave" cafe variety, using commercial roasts and medium-high doses. The Mazzer Mini recreates that experience pretty well. But I was obviously intrigued by your conviction that there is a painless way to get smooth, drinkable Italian-style espresso by dosing lower, grinding finer, and using an excellent conical or hybrid burr set like the one on the Cimbali.

You almost had a convert on your hands. But here's the thing. The Cimbali clumps terribly. The clumps are persistent and sticky at coarser settings, and even more so at fine settings. And try as I might to ignore the clumps, the water column sure as hell knows the difference because the resultant channeling is undeniable. Extra headroom via low dosing was not enough to compensate.

Perhaps you could offer a bit of advice:

  • Could you suggest a commercially-available coffee that is similar to your home roast or that you think would shine at low doses on the CMH?
  • Could you tell me whether your Cimbali Maxes ever clump and under what circumstances you feel that does or does not detract from your result?
  • What's a typical temperature profile for you? Do you favor Italian-style temperatures as well, say in the 90-91c range?

Thanks,
Ryan
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Link to "Working with my new La Cimbali Max Hybrid"by another_jim on Sun Mar 29, 2009 5:39 pm

portamento wrote: Any "getting started" tips from loyal Cimbali Max users?


Buy three to four pounds of supermarket coffee, grind it through. I don't use this grinder, but none of these big boys works well until the burrs are seasoned.
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Link to "Working with my new La Cimbali Max Hybrid"by Ken Fox on Sun Mar 29, 2009 6:09 pm

portamento wrote:It is hard to compare our experiences since you home roast and I suspect our taste expectations diverge. Most of my espresso exposure has been of the "third wave" cafe variety, using commercial roasts and medium-high doses. The Mazzer Mini recreates that experience pretty well. But I was obviously intrigued by your conviction that there is a painless way to get smooth, drinkable Italian-style espresso by dosing lower, grinding finer, and using an excellent conical or hybrid burr set like the one on the Cimbali.

You almost had a convert on your hands. But here's the thing. The Cimbali clumps terribly. The clumps are persistent and sticky at coarser settings, and even more so at fine settings. And try as I might to ignore the clumps, the water column sure as hell knows the difference because the resultant channeling is undeniable. Extra headroom via low dosing was not enough to compensate.

Perhaps you could offer a bit of advice:

  • Could you suggest a commercially-available coffee that is similar to your home roast or that you think would shine at low doses on the CMH?
  • Could you tell me whether your Cimbali Maxes ever clump and under what circumstances you feel that does or does not detract from your result?
  • What's a typical temperature profile for you? Do you favor Italian-style temperatures as well, say in the 90-91c range?

Thanks,
Ryan


Hi Ryan,

I would first take Jim's advice and run some coffee through the grinder, which may improve things.

I don't have an Andreja Premium, but I know it to be a good machine and in fact have local friends who bought one based upon my recommendation.

I have 3 Maxs. The two I use the most are the original Max's on which I have defeated the autogrind, and removed the trap door. The 3rd Max is a hybrid-Chris Coffee model, which (like yours, I'd imagine) is housed in the body of the Junior. The Chris Coffee model has the advantage of being smaller, however it is clearly noisier, and in all honesty I prefer the adjustment knob/mechanism on the original Maxs to the one on Chris Coffee model (although both work fine). The location of the Chris Coffee Max in my kitchen, under a counter, makes refilling the hopper a little more of a PITA than the other two, which are on my large kitchen island. As a result of the above, I probably use the original Maxs at least twice as much as I use the Chris Coffee model.

The grind results I get from the 3 Maxs are indistinguishable, at least to me. I do not get any significant clumping from any of these grinders, nor any more clumping with my Compak K10 WBC conical. I do live in a dry climate, and my coffees are generally not roasted to the very end of 1st crack, plus, they are most typically dry processed Africans, with a few others thrown in for good measure. I also do not let coffee hang around all that long; 10 days past the roast date the coffee might go into a milk drink, but generally by around day 12, whatever is left gets pitched.

In order to get a good extraction with the 14g of coffee that I tend to use, per double shot, the grind has to be rather fine. I virtually never use more than 15g of coffee for espresso anymore. I don't really know how much clumping I'd get at coarser grinds, but I doubt I'd get much. I say this because I used to dose at 18 or 19g with my Junior grinders, and I didn't notice any clumping with those, either, although the average shot from the Junior grinders was wholly inferior.

As to commercially available roasts, I'm really at a loss to suggest anything since the SO coffees I use for espresso are generally not widely available, and they tend to come from places like Klatch or occasionally the green bean coop. I don't know how Klatch roasts those coffees, because they are probably not roasting them for espresso use (being as they are SOs), and I don't know what level they'd pick for what they think their customers are going to use. That being said, I think you could find something, I just don't know where. If you want to try using less coffee per dose, then don't buy those blends that are designed to be updosed, because they will taste like dishwater at ~14g. Instead, try to find a blend that is more lightly roasted and that strives more for balance than for an "in your face" experience.

Most of my espresso extractions are done at around 198F, somewhat humped above that at the start, so a few degrees higher than 90-91C.

Hopefully something in my post will help.
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Link to "Working with my new La Cimbali Max Hybrid"by edwa on Sun Mar 29, 2009 7:49 pm

Ryan,
I apologize for asking too simple of a question, but .... what part of Texas are you in and what's your humidity like?

What surprises me most in your posts is that the taste is similar to your Mini. Although I only had mine for 2 weeks due to electrical problems, I have to say the consistency of the grind and the resulting shots were outstanding. I was using Klatch's Belle Espresso at 15-16 grams BUT my grind setting was down to 0.75 after zeroing the grinder. All that now being said, the taste difference from my Mini was very noticeable in that there was a lack of bite to the after taste and a mellowing of the chocolate notes. Overall a smoother, thicker, and slightly milder double shot of espresso. Like you I bought the CMH to rid myself of the WDT and it did that hands down.

For what its worth, I noticed on the Macap MXKR, that I got in replacement, an ever so slight settling in after about 15 lbs. The question is will you have enough time in your return policy to see if it is a settling problem? Try other blends too and if you don't have enough time left to allow some bean rest time send me a PM and I'll mail you some.
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Link to "Working with my new La Cimbali Max Hybrid"by portamento on Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:02 pm

Thank you Ed for the generous offer to mail some coffee. I think I have enough to work with for now.

Perhaps it was unfair to omit that the weather in Texas has been erratic. Oscillating temperatures and humidity, with a couple of rainy days. Today happens to be a gorgeous, sunny Spring day. That being said, I feel that the Cimbali's performance has not varied based on the indoor humidity. The density and frequency of clumps has been pretty consistent.

It is odd that some people in this thread report a grinder setting that I would consider to be extremely fine. 0.75 from zero is just 3 clicks away from burrs touching, correct? That's close to Turkish for me. It also implies a rather narrow range of valid adjustments. I have explored the finer settings on my grinder, but they tended to result in overextraction.

Jim, I'll run as much cheap coffee as I can through the CMH per your advice. I am hesitant to put really bad or stale coffee in since it is hard to completely flush previous grinds through this grinder. I did find 12 oz of Ethiopian Harrar for $5.69 last night at Target. It turned out to be medium-roasted with no surface oils, so I ran that through without any guilt. The biggest shocker is that it was pretty fresh, but that's a topic for another thread.

Ken, thanks for your coffee recommendations. As it turns out, I had some Klatch Ethiopian Aricha Lot 9 in the freezer. It's a great coffee with distinct red berries. I pulled some shots with the CMH and they did taste very nice. I have just a little left to sample on the Mazzer. I really should re-order that coffee before they run out.

Thanks all,
Ryan
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Link to "Working with my new La Cimbali Max Hybrid"by cannonfodder on Wed Apr 01, 2009 1:44 pm

What coffee are you using? Lots of discussion on other things but I have not seen anyone ask what brand coffee you are running through it.

For what it is worth, I have two Max's, the original not the hybrid Jr, and never had those issues unless the humidity was off the chart or the beans were a dark oily roast.
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Link to "Working with my new La Cimbali Max Hybrid"by portamento on Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:04 pm

Hi Dave,

There are several mentions of coffee in previous posts. So far I have tried beans from Klatch Roasting, Terroir, Cuvee, and my local roaster. None were dark roast. None had surface oils.

I have run the same coffees through my Mazzer with nice fluffy results.

Can anyone think of an engineering reason that the Cimbali Max Hybrid would clump more than the original Cimbali Max? Maybe there's something wrong with the grinder chute, which I can't even get access to because of the darn non-removable finger guard. Is the grinder chute a different aperture or shape on the Max than the Max Hybrid? (Dave, you might be able to answer that by comparing the Junior to the Max).

You said this about your Cimbali Junior once:

cannonfodder wrote:I never cut the finger guard tabs off for a couple of reasons. One, she sprays grinds, those tabs deflect the flying grinds down. Otherwise the coffee would spray against the front of the doser.


Does your Max spray grinds as well? My Max Hybrid doesn't. It only sprays for the first second or two if I have done my best to clear the chute with a chopstick. Once the coffee starts piling up in the chute, it begins to fall straight down in clumps. If I could get a fine spray of coffee going into the doser, I bet my clumping issues would disappear.

Thanks,
Ryan
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Link to "Working with my new La Cimbali Max Hybrid"by cannonfodder on Fri Apr 03, 2009 12:34 am

It does settle down a little but still throws grinds pretty good. I wonder if you have a voltage issue. Not enough juice to drive the motor at full speed. I also thwack the doser pretty good, one pull every 2 or 3 seconds which will also break up clumps. One of the reasons I like doser grinders.
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