cafeIKE wrote:Before one embarks on a DIY project, the original should offer something unobtainable elsewhere.

Stepless Rocky. Yawn.

ROFL!

And the MACAP MC4 "doser" edition is a nice choice over the doserless? I saw the technique to remove the clumps in the coffee. I don't know if the big clumps can really be a problem, when you tamp it right...If the ground coffee is equal and it is the same machine, same burr and all, i guess i prefer the doserless...

cafeIKE wrote:Before one embarks on a DIY project, the original should offer something unobtainable elsewhere.

Stepless Rocky. Yawn.

Don't know that I agree entirely. Or, stated another way, isn't that a matter of perspective? The Rocky is uninteresting, in my opinion, because I believe that the Lelit PL53 is a better grinder in the price range--with no firsthand experience. That said, the 'stepless' Rocky mods I have read about do get you something that seems unobtainable elsewhere--a super-cheap way to make your grinder stepless, and one of, what, 2 grinders of espresso quality in the price range? If you think the PL53 is ugly or cheaply built or something, I could see it being worthwhile.

Kind of like all the DIY timer mods... we do it not because we can't get a good auto-dosing grinder with a timer, but because all of them cost a prohibitive amount over the versions of the same grinder (say, $300-$1000 premium in the case of Mazzers).

Mark Well wrote:I saw the technique to remove the clumps in the coffee. I don't know if the big clumps can really be a problem, when you tamp it right.

Actually a tamp cannot correct for clumpiness. The clumps are more dense than loose coffee grounds, thus clumps = uneven puck density = uneven extraction. That is, smashing the clumps won't help because it won't correct the uneven distribution. Thwacking the doser handle or using the WDT helps equalize the density of the puck, leading to more even extractions.

tamping merely preserves the bedding.
distribution creates the bedding.
the goal is even density bed.
so if your coffee coming out of the grinder is not even density - it must be re-distributed in some manner.

malachi wrote:
As such - the audience here tends to be the kind of people who already own an entry level grinder (Rocky) or have graduated from an entry level grinder already.

This is why you get a lot of discussion of the Rocky on some other sites - but don't get much here (just as you get a lot of discussion of things like 3 phase Roburs here and not so much elsewhere).

I think a forum like that might benefit a newbie like me. Is it bad form to ask for the name(s)?

I assume Chris refers to Coffeegeek, which speaks to a wider audience than HB's "espresso fanatic" demographic.

Geek vs. fanatic... that's great, Dan. We all have a problem

I am sorry to read all of the negative comments regarding the Rocky doserless. I have been working on my espresso technique using a Vibiemme HX and a Rocky doserless for the last year. My experience has been that you can achieve a great espresso using a Rocky and a WDT. Yes, it did require a WDT, which is not convenient, but it worked great in a home environment. I was able to produce great straight shots with a little effort. Having said that, I have upgraded to a Mazzer Mini that I found on Craigslist, and am able to repeat those results without a WDT. I like the Mazzer better, but it was also $100 more. If I was cash strapped (which I was), I would have no problem using the Rocky. I was able to dial in my extraction just fine, but did have to use the WDT. This would not be convenient for a coffee shop, but for home use was just fine. I personally never had a problem dialing it down far enough for espresso. I could choke my machine well before the zero point, and was able to work within the 2-4 second increments of the stepped adjustment. Again, not ideal, but worked fine with some effort. I found the distribution and using a fresh roast made the bigger difference.

I agree. I have had excellent results with the Rocky DL, without using WDT but rather the click-clack pumping action while grinding.

Here's a photo set comparing results of the Rocky DL vs. Max Hybrid. I just couldn't justify the cost difference to jump up to the Max Hybrid... and so the Rocky is still on my counter *unless I found a used Mazzer or Macap to accompany it*

http://flickr.com/photos/bovino/sets/72157605236111390/

This is just my personal experience... cada uno con lo suyo.

Gabe

gbovino wrote:I agree. I have had excellent results with the Rocky DL, without using WDT but rather the click-clack pumping action while grinding.

I'm all over WDT with my Rocky DL, but am unfamiliar with your "CCPA" technique. Sounds interesting. Is it using the momentary switch in short bursts, the way you might run a food processor? I'm scouring craigslist and the classifieds for a decent used Mazzer, and would love to get better performance from my Rocky while awaiting a deal. Any elaboration will be appreciated!

Jack

dynamiteid wrote:I am sorry to read all of the negative comments regarding the Rocky doserless...... I would have no problem using the Rocky. I was able to dial in my extraction just fine, but did have to use the WDT........ I could choke my machine well before the zero point, and was able to work within the 2-4 second increments of the stepped adjustment.....

There are numerous reasons that can be stated that make the Rocky unpopular as a serious espresso grinder. I always found the steps of the Rocky to be far too large, even when I used it with Silvia. A four second change with one step adjustment is far too large.

It is interesting the way Rancilio does things, and it (IMO) reflects their attitude towards their "home line" which is just Rocky and Silvia. They added an adjustable OPV to Silvia yet no pressure gauge to use to adjust it. They changed the exterior design and boiler design yet still use a thermostat that does not at all match the excellent design of the machines function. Now they have evidently added some sort of push button valve for hot water/steam (showing up on machines in Europe), and a new fancy handle on the portafilter. With Rocky, the machine has an excellent motor, but the threads of the upper burr carrier are of low tolerance and allow the upper burr to rock quite a bit, the alloy (or hardening?) of the burrs is not the best and the burrs are good for no more than 75 pounds, and in actual use probably closer to 40 or 50 pounds, and the steps of the adjustment are far too wide to consider it as much more than an entry-level espresso grinder. It also creates a dense, clumpy grind necessitating more effort post-dose than should be required. Those are my reasons, anyway.

Rocky needs to have the upper carrier spring loaded to steady it and the adjustment could be easily modified to be stepless if the lock was friction instead of detent system of the little holes on the bottom of the hopper. And if we want to get picky, we can fault the silly stop screw in the upper burr carrier that makes removal of the hopper necessary to get the top burr carrier out as well as the near-impossibility of adjusting the grind of the doserless model while you are grinding because of the momentary switch.

Anyway, that's my opinion of why. They make nice starter machines because of their dependability and resale value, and they are good educational tools because they force the user to work their Arabica off trying to work within their wide operational parameters, but for the price, I would recommend folks spending up to the next step.

It is yet to be seen, but if Baratza solved the static problems of their earlier models (which was a serious problem), I think I would recommend the new Vario over the Rocky (but that's just a guess because I have not yet used the Vario).

Dear Reader,

I restored a Brugnetti Simona from the late 90's - Aurora version...top to bottom: Gaskets, new portafilters - bottomless, new heavy duty pump, new thermostats (top and bottom), works great BUT I had a absolute devil of a time with the Grinder: Read: Breville.

At the advise of "Jim" I purchased a real grinder: Rancilio Rocky.

All I can say is right out of the box...less the infamous "italian grounds for testing at the factory," yes they went all over the place - it is stellar and meets my needs for 2 triple shots a day.

I roast my own coffee ala Popper.

Right away I found the zero point and incidentally it came set at 10, my mark after just 2 shots give or take: 12-10.5...no problems with wobbling or anything else. I have the Doserless version.

I love the stand under the chute. I have a bottomless and bottomed single spout portafilter. I fill both, in less than 5 minutes the Brugnetti can steam the milk and then I can draw water from the Group, dose via the Rancilio, clumpy I might add, dose I mean while grinding...

I found that via the chop method with a teaspoon, left, right and around then a quick WDM(T) method, with a paperclip as like a pointer...stir; then the interesting part I had been tamping so hard...now just a firm tamp, a N, S, E and W...and gotcha.

My machine like a clock can do a double or triple in brew. 23-40 seconds...almost perfect every time, I mean every one...so far about 20+.

It seems the grind makes so much of a difference over the Breville...which after 3 month of trying...was returned for a cash refund to Williams-Sonoma....+Tax, what a nice bunch of folks.

I hemmed and hawed about the M4 v. the Rancilio; but the price point for 2 a day or even sometimes 1 a week...I drink very little coffee...this grinder does it nice, easy cleanup and great for the novice.

Tamping is now a dream, Reg Barber cheapo style...I use so little pressure, just light and on a silicon pot holder doubled as one to "crunch down on" to keep the OSHA arm problems from occurring...I get those at my age from weight lifting...walla...wonderful 30-50 ml of espresso so nice and fine with a wonderful cap of glorious crema...so much so that I stopped the cappuccinos...maybe a side shot of skim milk cold to chase that syrup...I mean syrup...so, what is the word: Ristretto (??)...

Anyway, that's why for my popular story...I just could not justify the dollars.

My Simona is a masterpiece of precision and is really easy to handle.

If it were not for this board, I would have wasted time and money on more and probably been chasing my tail so to speak.

Anyway,

Thank you for the time and consideration of reading this.

John

My first grinder was a Rocky doserless. With mine, even with the teflon tape mod, I could never grind fine enough to get appropriate extraction times. Even grinding right at the zero point, the shots always ran fast.

A few years ago I had the same decision: Rocky vs. Mazzer and I went with a Mazzer Mini. The Mazzer has been rock solid giving me a perfect grind every day. I tweak the grind setting very slightly from roast to roast to fine tune my extraction and the Mazzer's infinitely variable adjustment works perfectly. Skimping on a grinder will cause you much nuisance every morning tinkering with cutting the bottoms off of yogurt cups and stirring needles and other contraptions. All of that is unnecessary if you get the right grinder to start.

I have no experience with the Rocky, but I think you would be very pleased if you bought the Mazzer Mini.

My 2 cents.

malachi wrote:The members of this site (as a gross generalization) are the kind of people who are looking to improve the quality of their home espresso. This is contrasted with the audience of other sites where people are looking to learn how to start making espresso at home.

As such - the audience here tends to be the kind of people who already own an entry level grinder (Rocky) or have graduated from an entry level grinder already.

This is why you get a lot of discussion of the Rocky on some other sites - but don't get much here (just as you get a lot of discussion of things like 3 phase Roburs here and not so much elsewhere).

Very good summary in my opinion.

The Rocky is a very good entry level grinder and has been for years, but the competition is now stiffer.

It is NOT however that HB is down on the Rocky. You only need to read Jim Schulman's great taste test against the Robur in the Titan grinder project....

vanboom wrote:A few years ago I had the same decision: Rocky vs. Mazzer and I went with a Mazzer Mini. The Mazzer has been rock solid giving me a perfect grind every day. I tweak the grind setting very slightly from roast to roast to fine tune my extraction and the Mazzer's infinitely variable adjustment works perfectly. Skimping on a grinder will cause you much nuisance every morning tinkering with cutting the bottoms off of yogurt cups and stirring needles and other contraptions. All of that is unnecessary if you get the right grinder to start.

I have no experience with the Rocky, but I think you would be very pleased if you bought the Mazzer Mini.

My 2 cents.

Completely agree. I owned both the Rocky and Mazzer Mini. No comparison. I hated the Rocky. The grind adjustment mechanism felt (and worked) like a toy.

If you are serious about espresso, avoid the unnecessary upgrade step and skip the Rocky. A used Mazzer or new Vario is only a little bit more expensive and well worth the extra $100.

I'm pretty sure anyone who has owned both (like me) will tell you the same thing.

Sorry to join the chorus of Rocky bashers My first grinder was a Pavoni PGB which I later replaced with a Rocky DL. I was never convinced the grind was any better. I did all the mods to the Rocky and only ever got serviceable shots at best. Sure I could choke my Pavoni but the shots were rarely all that great. I don't believe a grinder's ability to choke a machine is any more than a starting point. When I eventually bought a second hand mazzer, my whole world changed. Now my shots are consistently good and occasionally, mind blowing. The other issue is the price of a Rocky. In my country, second hand ones show up very rarely but second hand mazzers are pretty common. I bought 3 used Mazzers over the last few months and paid far less for any of them than I did for my Rocky. I sold my Rocky for $50 less than I originally paid for it (albeit with new burrs installed). I think that they are way over-priced and one can do a lot better for less money.

shadowfax wrote:The Rocky is uninteresting, in my opinion, because I believe that the Lelit PL53 is a better grinder in the price range--with no firsthand experience. That said, the 'stepless' Rocky mods I have read about do get you something that seems unobtainable elsewhere--a super-cheap way to make your grinder stepless, and one of, what, 2 grinders of espresso quality in the price range? If you think the PL53 is ugly or cheaply built or something, I could see it being worthwhile.

There's at least a third grinder of espresso quality in this "bottom of the pile" (entry level) price range... the Ascaso i-Mini. It's pretty comparable to the LeLit PL53 in terms of performance/features (same burr set, I believe - though I also believe the LeLit's mounting may be a bit better). The differences - the i-Mini's body is cast aluminum vs the LeLit's stainless steel sheet metal and the i-Mini is differently styled (a body of more rounded lines, compared to the LeLit's more rectangular box-like appearance). Both are worthy alternatives to the Rocky at prices that are likely less than the Rocky. Both the i-Mini and the LeLit are each preferable to the Rocky for espresso because they are each stepless, each with a micrometer-like knob (though unfortunately not calibrated or marked with any sort of "revolution counter") that takes many full revolutions to travel through the likely full range for espresso - making the fine tuning essentially unlimited - or, rather, only really limited by the quality of the burr set and its mounting...

When I was new to all this about 18 months ago, I first eliminated the Rocky from consideration due to the limitations of a stepped design. I then chose the i-Mini over the LeLit primarily for reasons of personal (and spousal) aesthetics - it seemed of equal quality to the LeLit, in a package that we simply found more attractive. Ultimately, we've not been sorry - and chose a second Ascaso i-Mini a few months later when we were in the market for a grinder for an espresso machine at a different location.