Why is Orphan Espresso LIDO supposed to best Pharos for press?

#1: Post by **JWK** » December 19th, 2013, 9:13 am

Well, I thought I had done my research.

I have recently acquired a Pharos and have been using it for our french press coffee. We plan on trying some pour over and other steeped brewing in the near future, but no espresso until we are much farther down the road. In doing my reading in the past few days, I have stumbled on posts stating that the Lido makes a better grind for pour over and press than the Pharos and that the Pharos is superior for espresso. I have also found people stating that bulk grinders are far superior to either one for grinds other than espresso.

I find this a bit disconcerting, but that's water under the bridge now. The Pharos is still far superior to the piece of junk I've been using for the past 13 years, and one thing less to worry about if I ever go to espresso.

I still want to educate myself much more regarding grinders. I've tried doing a search, but either I don't know what to put in for search parameters, or there is nothing much out there on the net. Could someone give me some info on the different types of grinders for different purposes? I would assume at this point that burr types play into this. In my ignorance, I previously had thought every coffee grinder had conical burrs and that the only difference was in the size. Actually, it's one of the reasons I decided to get the Pharos rather than wait for a Lido2. I thought the bigger burr size would help with making a more consistent coarse grind.

Interesting note: When I received the Pharos, I read through the instructions and found that the french press setting was suggested at 1.5 to 2.5 turns of the locking collar nut from zero. Knowing I use a finer grind than most french press users, I went right to the 1.5 setting. Much too coarse. Looking through a magnifying glass, I compared some grind from my old grinder to the Pharos until they looked the same. The setting on the Pharos at this point was exactly one full turn from zero.

My wife and I were both stunned at how much better our coffee was. We both noticed mouth feel, body and flavors we never tasted before (all good flavors). I know this was not the power of suggestion, because we never thought or knew that a grind could actually alter the coffee that much. I just thought the coffee would be "better" regarding more flavor richness (but the same flavor) and loss of bitterness. Three or four sips in from the first mugs made from the Pharos, we were both like -

. We never saw it coming. Seriously.

I have a Behmor 1600 arriving tomorrow with green beans from Sweet Maria's. I can't imagine what this is going to do to us. We almost mourn the loss of our blissful ignorance, and we ask ourselves now, "OMG, when will this end? Will it EVER end?"

In closing, I know this is a board dedicated mostly to espresso, but the info here on grinders is far better than anything I've found elsewhere, especially for manual grinders. Anyway, I'm still interested and fascinated by espresso, just can't do it right now. I won't do it until I can do it right!! That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Thanks for any info or links to info regarding the different grinder types, especially the grind difference between the Lido and the Pharos. Who knew? Oh, right. That would be me.

#2: Post by **Nate42** » December 19th, 2013, 11:17 am

Both LIDO and Pharos use burrs that are designed for espresso use, and they deliberately have a bimodal grinds distribution. To the best of my knowledge there is no hand grinder equivalent of a commercial bulk grinder, which has a more unimodal particle distribution and is the theoretical ultimate for press/pour over.

General theory is that the Lido does better for press than pharos simply because it works more slowly, its more of a "nibbler" and produces less fines as a result. I don't own a Lido, but I think its burr is similar to what is in my preciso, which definitely works better for press than my Pharos.

So, yeah, pharos is at its best for espresso, but it still does a pretty decent press. One upside compared to Lido is the grind speed is much much faster for pharos. It sounds like you're happy with your grind quality, so don't sweat it. And when the day comes that you want to do espresso, you already have one of the best espresso grinders available.

Also, don't take OE's recommended settings as any kind of gospel. "zero" is pretty subjective on the pharos, and I for one use a much finer grind for press than what they recommend, my preferred setting is only slightly coarser than drip. What works for you is what works.

#3: Post by **bostonbuzz** » December 19th, 2013, 12:12 pm

If you dig around you'll find Doug answering this question a few times. I believe he mentioned something about coarse grinds for big conicals letting some larger particles through for some reason. The answer isn't scientific or even tested as far as I can tell. Keep in mind that FP is the coarsest setting, and may not apply at all other brew methods.

#4: Post by **happycat** » December 19th, 2013, 12:14 pm

Here is my understanding.

In coffee, grinding is all about consistent particle size.

When particles are not consistent, they produce a range of flavours. Fines over-extract and give you bitterness. Boulders may provide sourness. As the human tongue is way over sensitized to bitter and sour, those fines can muddy flavours at best, and wipe out your ability to enjoy all the more subtle sweets and florals etc.

The more expensive the grinding burr, the more focus on producing consistent particle sizes to narrow down the flavours and avoid muddiness. In espresso grinders (until the current EK-43 grinder phases), the presence of fines is considered important to ensure the coffee puck holds back the water pressure during espresso brewing. So while high end espresso grinders are way more consistent, they still produce these fine particles.

Bulk grinders (including the EK-43 which is advertised as the most consistent grind possible and is now being played with in espresso using special tamping and flow-control techniques) focus on producing consistent grinds PERIOD, minimizing fines. Non EK-43 bulk grinders may not produce good espresso because they don't have the necessary fines distribution for old-school espresso brewing and they don't have the super consistent grinds of the EK-43 with the associated new techniques to make it work.

For my own part, my Pharos espresso is great. I made some syphons with my Pharos but found there were too many fines disrupting the flavour. I was grinding around drip grinds. I bought a used Bunn G1 bulk grinder and I am far more happy with my syphon and Aeropress results.

All that being said, if you're happy with your French Presses with the Pharos, that's great. Different amounts of fines get produced at different points in the grinding settings so you may be getting ok results at coarse whereas drip grinds might be more problematic.

At any rate, it's worth having the experience of reducing fines to see how you feel. One way of doing that without buying a new grinder is to play with sieves. Sieving french press grinds is probably pretty easy and you will get a sense of the particle distribution. I have a bunch of little sieves in my kitchen that I used to analyze my Pharos grind at drip settings.

Have fun!

ADDED NOTE: I see that you are getting into home roasting as well. Note that the consistency issue applies to roasting too. You need to pick through your beans (search here for "bean defects") to pull out the handful that will ruin the rest of your coffee. A few sours or grassy beans can blow an entire cup or carafe and send you on a tail-chasing cycle of adjusting your roasts based on outliers.

December 19th, 2013, 2:13 pm

Some reading for you.

Why do bulk grinders produce a superior grind for non espresso preparation?

Hand Grinder Roadshow

#6: Post by **mkeller234** » December 19th, 2013, 5:18 pm

Doug posted something about it recently, saying the large hand grinders don't produce the centrifugal force to produce even course grinds. I believe he said that as the burrs move further away, some unprocessed grinds can slip through. Don't quote me on that though!

Have you tried a targeted search? Type something like this into google - Pharos course site:home-barista.com

#7: Post by **mkeller234** » December 19th, 2013, 5:25 pm

Also, I seem to find, "reasons" to collect grinders. I have a Lido 1.... But figured I could get a lido 2 to use with other methods. Do I need another? No.

My point is, now that you have a Pharos, you can add a lido someday. Does it ever end? Good question, it depends on how much you enjoy collecting gadgets. That's fun for me, the limiting factor is always budget. I also own 8 bicycles.... So you may want to ignore my opinion.

#8: Post by **tbone53** » December 20th, 2013, 10:44 am

JWK wrote: My wife and I were both stunned at how much better our coffee was. We both noticed mouth feel, body and flavors we never tasted before (all good flavors). I know this was not the power of suggestion, because we never thought or knew that a grind could actually alter the coffee that much.

YES! Sounds like you've got the pharos dialed in and are enjoying good results, which is the whole point of this.

With quality equipment, the differences between results from various models can be subtle and do not make a huge difference in the cup. I wouldn't second guess getting the pharos. If you get into espresso later, you might decide then to dedicate the pharos for espresso and get a second grinder for press for the purpose of not having to constantly adjust the grinder (not for coffee quality reasons).

#9: Post by **TomC** » December 20th, 2013, 1:50 pm

I think you have a fair amount of assumptions/opinions being offered as objective findings.

happycat wrote:Here is my understanding.

In coffee, grinding is all about consistent particle size.

Not really. Consistent particle size as a term is misleading unless you further explain what you mean. Consistent particle size within the dose? Or consistent particle size from dose to dose? Nailing down a very tight single distribution "spike" on a particle distribution curve is more about burr sharpness, and dead square perfect alignment and bean characteristics regarding many things, including density, bean type and size and even roast degree.

happycat wrote:When particles are not consistent, they produce a range of flavours. Fines over-extract and give you bitterness. Boulders may provide sourness. As the human tongue is way over sensitized to bitter and sour, those fines can muddy flavours at best, and wipe out your ability to enjoy all the more subtle sweets and florals etc.

All coffee will create a wide range of flavors, so starting out by attributing the change in range of flavors to particle size is starting off on the wrong foot.

happycat wrote:The more expensive the grinding burr, the more focus on producing consistent particle sizes to narrow down the flavours and avoid muddiness. In espresso grinders (until the current EK-43 grinder phases), the presence of fines is considered important to ensure the coffee puck holds back the water pressure during espresso brewing. So while high end espresso grinders are way more consistent, they still produce these fine particles.

Again, not entirely true. Most of the cost inherent in quality burrs are due to their commercial application where durability and dependability/ longevity is most important. Muddying of flavors can occur even in expensive burrs if they are worn. And it may not be the "consistent particle size" you mention that gives "narrower flavors". Some expensive conical burrs can create not only bimodal, but even trimodal particle distribution curves. But I will agree that optimally aligned, sharp conical burrs have a trait of flavor clarity, but I think it would be false to attribute that to one "consistent particle size" only. There are likely many factors.

happycat wrote:Bulk grinders (including the EK-43 which is advertised as the most consistent grind possible and is now being played with in espresso using special tamping and flow-control techniques) focus on producing consistent grinds PERIOD, minimizing fines.

Not quite. It's also advertised in a way to promote it's allegedly extremely low retention, and ease of switching in various coffees with less time needed for dialing in, as well as being capable of single dosing if one were to choose. And I'd like to see several independent studies of the particle distribution curve on the EK43 or any other flat burr grinder (including my own) before I'd say it's conclusively about "minimizing fines". It could just as well be due to the possibility that the bulk of the grinds in the extraction are in one much tighter taller spike on the distribution curve, which would seem more likely.

happycat wrote:Non EK-43 bulk grinders may not produce good espresso because they don't have the necessary fines distribution for old-school espresso brewing and they don't have the super consistent grinds of the EK-43 with the associated new techniques to make it work.

See the point above.

happycat wrote:For my own part, my Pharos espresso is great. I made some syphons with my Pharos but found there were too many fines disrupting the flavour. I was grinding around drip grinds. I bought a used Bunn G1 bulk grinder and I am far more happy with my syphon and Aeropress results.

True "fines" are thought to be minuscule pieces of the cell walls (cellulose) shattering during grinding. Cellulose does not dissolve. They do not directly add or change flavor. They are thought to alter mouthfeel. Things that can be attributed to the blanket term people throw out by calling them "fines" could easily apply, or more correctly be very small particles of undisolved soluble particles that extract more fully, or rapidly, due to their smaller size, which may increase richness, bitterness, astringency, depth of flavor,etc.

happycat wrote:At any rate, it's worth having the experience of reducing fines to see how you feel. One way of doing that without buying a new grinder is to play with sieves.

Same as the point above. In my tests sieving coffee, I find that we're attributing the term "fines" too broadly. Sieving can narrow the median span of particles in a given sample. But true fines seem to be equally as affected by electrostatic forces and don't readily appear to migrate out thru sifting. Sifting more or less can help you determine if your burrs are sharp enough to give you full extractions and that you're not wasting coffee.

happycat wrote:Sieving french press grinds is probably pretty easy and you will get a sense of the particle distribution. I have a bunch of little sieves in my kitchen that I used to analyze my Pharos grind at drip settings.

Can't disagree there. It is fun to play with and test the differences it has on your brewing. For me, I've relegated sieving down to mainly just when preparing long brewing Iced Coffee. I find a greater deal of flavor clarity and lack of bitterness from sieving. Not because I believe I'm removing "fines" It appears its because I'm separating out the smaller-smallest soluble undisolved particles that would contribute excess bitterness in a prolonged brewing process.