Hi Jason,

I messed up my reply a little bit. What I wanted to say is this:

You mentioned that a $2500 grinder for FP/drip is a over the top and that this is a site for HOME-baristas. Still we have quite a lot of people here with Roburs and Ninos which cost more than $3000, so I don't really understand why a $2500 drip/FP grinder is too much and not suitable for home? I understand that both the Roburs and Guatemalas are indeed a bit big and dedicated for cafe environment, but I don't see anyone saying that a Robur is too much.

Jason have you compared your Vario to any other espresso grinder on coarser settings? and by compared I mean seriously try to get something nice from a different espresso grinder, try various settings, play with extraction timings and so on?

Regards,
dsc.

zin1953 wrote:Tom? I don't know anyone who is honestly comparing a Baratza Vario to a Mazzer Robur. The comparisons have largely been between the Baratza Vario and the Mazzer Super Jolly . . . a comparison I cannot attest to directly as I've never owned an SJ, yet one I accept as valid due to the people who are making it.

The point of my mentioning the Robur was merely to pick the "ultimate." (And thus the "and there will NEVER be anything better!" comment.) Substitute the word "ultimate" for the word "Robur," and the point remains the same: no one is claiming the Baratza Vario is the "ultimate" grinder for anything -- espresso, siphon, drip, press, moka, whatever. However, it comes closer (in my experience) than many other grinders out there, and certainly closer than any other grinder in its price range.

I have no doubt, Tom, that if money were no object, not only would we all have Roburs (or whatever the ultimate espresso grinder may be), but we'd ALSO all have the "ultimate" dedicated drip grinder, the "ultimate" dedicated FP grinder, etc., etc., etc. . . . but since money IS an object -- well, for most of us anyway -- the Baratza Vario is (again, IMHO) not only an outstanding grinder for espresso, but more versatile than any grinder in its price category.

Cheers,
Jason

...split from Getting started with the Baratza Vario by moderator...

dsc wrote:You mentioned that a $2500 grinder for FP/drip is a over the top and that this is a site for HOME-baristas. Still we have quite a lot of people here with Roburs and Ninos which cost more than $3000, so I don't really understand why a $2500 drip/FP grinder is too much and not suitable for home? I understand that both the Roburs and Guatemalas are indeed a bit big and dedicated for cafe environment, but I don't see anyone saying that a Robur is too much.

Hmmmm . . .

Well, perhaps because this is home-barista.com, I haven't seen too many people here discuss high-end grinders for drip/FP/siphon/etc. (Then again, I haven't seen too many people discuss it over on CG, either; off the top of my head -- and admittedly not paying super-close attention -- it seems to "top out" at something like a Grindmaster, a Bunn -- something like that, and typically purchased used off eBay and the like . . . )

(FWIW, I just searched on CG: there are 11 reviews for Bunn grinders, the latest from 2007, and no reviews for Grindmaster or Mahlkönigs like the Kenia, Guatemala, or Tanzania.)

So, on the one hand, it would appear on the surface to be a rather rare occurrence.

On the other hand, I did say (sort of) that a Robur is too much in this thread:

zin1953 wrote: . . . But that said, I have to admit that the thought has crossed my mind that those of us with titan (or titan-esque) commercial grinders at home are crazy: they are big, way too tall (at least as designed) for the average kitchen and, seriously, how many of us truly need a grinder capable of producing between 120-720 doubles per hour? OTOH, the Baratza Vario seems to be a "professional-grade grinder in a conveniently home-sized package." I can seriously see it "killing" the home market for new Mazzer SJ's, for example, as well as Mazzer Mini's, Macap M4's, and so on . . .

Now, the Robur isn't specifically mentioned in that quote, but I think that all but the über-geeks among us realize there is a point beyond which this hobby becomes obsessive. I mean, from a realistic point-of-view, does anyone truly need a Robur? (Or, for that matter, a Mahlkönig K30 Vario?) "Need?" No. "Want," however, is another story.

And this is (IMHO) even more true for other methods of coffee preparation. I mean, I am very willing to be wrong, but no one seems to be as obsessed about drip/fp/siphon coffee as "we" are about espresso. Lots of people are obsessed with home roasting, but even on CG -- where there are specific forums for "coffee" (as distinct from "espresso"), I've never noticed people waxing poetic over the joys of a Robur-equivalent the way we do here . . .

dsc wrote:Jason have you compared your Vario to any other espresso grinder on coarser settings? and by compared I mean seriously try to get something nice from a different espresso grinder, try various settings, play with extraction timings and so on?

I tried early on once to make fp with my Mazzer Mini and with my Nuova Simonelli MCI. It wasn't very good . . . and it's been years since I seriously tried making drip. As I've already said, the Baratza Vario has let me re-discover the joys of drip. And while my checking account is happy the Nino only comes in 220v (and so I didn't buy one), nothing about drip is making rush out to buy a Mahlkönig Tanzania (which does look great, IMHO), let alone Mahlkönig's version of Robbie the Robot . . .

Cheers,
Jason

Hi Jason,

I think that drip/FP is not being given much attention due to various reasons. I agree that HB is an espresso oriented forum/website and that's probably the main cause why big dedicated drip/FP grinders are not discussed/used/compared.

Now, the Robur isn't specifically mentioned in that quote, but I think that all but the über-geeks among us realize there is a point beyond which this hobby becomes obsessive. I mean, from a realistic point-of-view, does anyone truly need a Robur?

The biggest problem here is that you can't get a decent conical that's small enough for most kitchen counters. Mazzer or any of the other grinder manufacturers doesn't give a crap about home-baristas, they simply don't see enough profit to bother designing a new small conical with the same burrs as the Robur/Kony. Same goes for big flat burrs and same goes for timer fitted grinders. Vario is not a full solution though imho, it's is indeed small and home friendly, but has a small burr set and is a bit plastic'y, not as well built as a Mazzer etc. I'm pretty sure one can fit a bigger burr set and an effective motor to drive that burr set and still keep it locked in a rather small case, same goes for conicals, but sadly no one is bothered.

Funnily enough I think drip/FP is easier to get a nice brew, costs less and takes less space (compared to espresso).

Regards,
dsc.

Hello Tom.

Clearly Mahlkonig is working in the same direction you are describing. Have a look at the ProM!

A new Mahlkonig grinder for the home barista to covet?

That will still not be the answer to it all but it is getting even closer. Well, that is being said based on the specifications only. I am not aware of anyone that tried a coffee made from it.

Also I do not think that the grinder manufacturers do not care about the home market. I think that we are buying the grinders that they are currently making and they are happy with it. If another company comes in and takes the market away from them, they may react and introduce new stuff.

I think that a lot of people are underestimating the volume of grinders that go to a home environment. Agreed that the number of Titan grinders that goes to the home market is low. I also think that what we want for our home is also what the Horeca (Hotel, restaurant, cafe) market also wants. This is just an opinion and anybody else may have a different one and still be my friend!!

dsc wrote:Funnily enough I think drip/FP is easier to get a nice brew, costs less and takes less space (compared to espresso).

I fully agree but I really like the espresso a whole lot more!!!

Whale wrote:I do not think that the grinder manufacturers do not care about the home market.

Well, Sylvain, let me re-state your sentence to belabor the obvious: "Manufacturers of commercial grinders do not care about the home market." In contrast, manufacturers of home grinders -- think Krups, KitchenAid, Cuisinart, Solis, etc. -- don't care about the commercial market.

That said, I agree that there is disconnect between the manufacturers of home- and the manufacturers of commercial grinders. Not only has it felt like "you stay in your yard; I'll stay in mine," but no one seems even to have looked at what the other was doing.

Whale wrote:I think that we are buying the grinders that they are currently making and they are happy with it. If another company comes in and takes the market away from them, they may react and introduce new stuff.

Well, I cannot speak to the evolution of the specific device in question, but I'd say "that other company" is Baratza, who worked with Mahlkönig in making the Baratza Vario/Mahlkönig Vario HOME. And, it seems to me, that -- as a result of that collaboration -- Mahlkönig IS paying attention, if the Pro M is any indication.

Whale wrote:I think that a lot of people are underestimating the volume of grinders that go to a home environment. Agreed that the number of Titan grinders that goes to the home market is low. I also think that what we want for our home is also what the Horeca (Hotel, restaurant, cafe) market also wants. This is just an opinion and anybody else may have a different one and still be my friend!!

Sylvain, it isn't a matter of grinders going into the home market. Of course grinders are going into the home market! But the number of commercial grinders going into homes is rather small. The number of households with "prosumer" espresso machines is miniscule. The number of people who still buy vacuum-packed cans of pre-ground coffee remains huge.

The number of people who participate on home-barista.com is ridiculously small, compared to the total number of coffee/espresso drinkers out there . . . yet there is a natural human tendency to think that "we" represent the majority. We don't. And the number of people who want anything more "serious" than a designed-for-home use grinder is equally small.

Cheers,
Jason

zin1953 wrote:Well, Sylvain, let me re-state your sentence to belabor the obvious: "Manufacturers of commercial grinders do not care about the home market." In contrast, manufacturers of home grinders -- think Krups, KitchenAid, Cuisinart, Solis, etc. -- don't care about the commercial market.

I respect and value your opinion, but I meant ALL grinder manufacturers.

I started writing a whole essay on economics and market evolution and so on and then realise that this is not the purpose of this thread or this forum, and deleted it all. I already had this debate in another thread and really do not want to open old wounds or antagonise anybody.

I will simply write this: I think that ALL manufacturer should pay attention to ALL their customers and make choices with that knowledge of the complete market. ALL sales are important! 0.1% of sales is very important!