One more thing:

michaelbenis wrote:Sure it was an assumption on my part, Jon. But you still do not post that you have done any comparisons of the same grinders single-dosing and not. I assume you would if you had.

This is not about you, Jon.

In the same breath you make it about me, and then say it's not.
We have a saying about the word assume


If I had done "extensive comparisons" but no formal testing, then I would be posting my impressions with plenty of "as yet to be proven" type statements rather than asserting that my subjective impressions constitute absolutes.

And with that said, I feel I must withdraw from this thread entirely as it is far to aggrivating

Unbelievable.
If I want to say something, I will say it myself.

I wasn't missing that. Nor putting words in your mouth.

By your own admission you have done only that one comparison (you will be stunned to hear I haven't forgotten). With a very bright bean as you have stated. Moreover, with a bright bean dosed quite inappropriately by your own description:

The test doubles were about 1.5 oz from 18-20g (EDIT - each pair was weighed to match) in a "standard" ridgeless double basket. During the dialing-in process we tried doses ranging from 18g to 21g and ran shots from 1 oz to 2 oz (with flow rates from normale to ristretto).

You acknowledged that the extractions you were getting did not allow any distinctions other than - again to quote, to avoid unnecessary consequential rhetoric:

The tasters had difficulty distinguishing any differences in the cup.
The judging was made based on least offensive...but all the test shots were sinkers.
I feel badly for the tasters, it was a painful task

Nicholas put this in pespective as the

least presence of the defect of unpalatable sourness

.

I'm afraid that's quite simply not a valid comparison.

If it is the only one you have done I can understand your being "skeptical".

On the other hand I am not making any outrageous claims. I have quite amazingly "discovered" that these grinders work best the way they have been designed to work.

There is nothing to be "skeptical" about there. I am hardly claiming to have invented a new wheel.

Rather there is plenty to be "skeptical" about regarding the assumption that single dosing is going to yield favourably comparable results, being entirely outside the design parameters.

So the bottom line is do I think using the grinders as designed gets the best results, purging before each "new" shot? Definitely!

Do I think single dosing works? Of course it does!

Do I think it gives the same results? No!

Do I think it is advisable? I think you pays your money and you takes your choice, but it is worth trying both ways just so that you are aware of what you may be missing if you do opt for single dosing.

Full stop.

While I'm in quote mode: A while back you posted

we need to lighten this up!

Hear hear!

After all, it is Christmas.

And frankly until you have done some valid comparisons of your own, either on your own or in company to do them blind, or I have managed to get together with some people to do some blind testing here in the UK, I honestly don't think there's much either of us can add to this other than:

Merry Christmas!

and

Enjoy the coffee!

Cheers

Mike

[Edit] I posted this just after your last post, Jon. When I wrote "not about you", I meant this thread. I meant that I was insisting not to lock horns with you, or Jim, or anyone else, but because this is a practise that is seen to be advocated on the forums and is one of the few instances in my experience of a big trade-off where quality is sacrificed - you gain a fresh grind, some convenience and save coffee by single dosing, but don't get the very best out of your grinder. I have simply wanted to ensure that people took making the comparison seriously. The science is not against that.

another_jim wrote:The taste of their unexamined espresso is punishment enough.

Almost a year of "testing" over ~2500 shots is unexamined

This morning back to mini hopper, adjusted grinder back to marked, lash removed, position and purged a full shot into the bin. Not until the third pull did shot parameters return. The first, very ristretto and over extracted. The second nondescript and finally on the third, the dark chocolate and citrus, mouthfeel and 'story' reappeared, losing the flat caramel of 1-shot charge days previous.

Of minor interest is the third grind delivered 8.7g. The 15 shots prior to 1-shot trial were either 8.7 or 8.8g.
Note : the weights are mechanically interesting only, and do not imply endorsement of a particular taste profile.

Nice to read someone comparing experiences, Ian.

Story is a good word. It gets lost doesn't it? Even when the extractions looked good. Weird!

Geez. I might have stayed true to my word and removed myself from this thread if you had not posted such offensive and misleading crap about me by using my words out of context.

michaelbenis wrote:Moreover, with a bright bean dosed quite inappropriately by your own description

This from the guy who pulls 2 ounces from 8g dose and calls it "espresso" ?
At least (up till now) I had been civil enough to respect YOUR preferences.

Again - the initial post I made was intended to provide a context which you conveniently skip:

JonR10 wrote:Because during the dialing-in process it was quite evident to me (and my fellow tasters) that there was no real difference in flavor or body/consistency of the shots from the two grinders.

And that was true for the palatable shots as well as the undrinkable ones.

Feel free to continue posting your own impresssions but since this is "not about me" then leave me out of it. Your decision to post yet another diatribe and fill it with out-of-context quotes from me was truly offensive to me (and terribly bad form).

Jon, I'm sorry to have offended you personally and your sense of form.

I note that your definition of espresso does not include a shot of around 1 3/4 oz including crema for an 8g dose of Sidamo.

Thank you for recapping that you found no difference in flavour or body/consistency between sink shots.

Best wishes

Mike

michaelbenis wrote:Thank you for recapping that you found no difference in flavour or body/consistency between sink shots.

JonR10 wrote:And that was true for the palatable shots as well as the undrinkable ones.

Maybe you should consider a career in American Politics.
They also only quote the part they choose and discard the context.

OK. I'd really hoped to shut up on this, but just to get it straight.

These palatable ones you are now mentioning, Jon, where do they fit in with what you wrote earlier (bold my emphasis)?

The tasters had difficulty distinguishing any differences in the cup.
The judging was made based on least offensive...but all the test shots were sinkers.
I feel badly for the tasters, it was a painful task

Damn it, Jon, I'd like to invite you to the UK so we can get this over with in private over two Nino grinders, some machine we can both agree on, several different types of beans and quite probably a large bottle of scotch.

What do you say? We could even choose witnesses. Or should that be seconds?

Now for goodness sake, let's leave the passion in the bottom of the cup and get on with Christmas, can we?

You express yourself frankly. I express myself frankly. We both want to get to the bottom of this.

And we both hopefully have long and healthy lives ahead of us in which to do it....

michaelbenis wrote:Damn it, Jon, I'd like to invite you to the UK so we can get this over with in private over two Nino grinders

I suspect we would have a very good time, and maybe we would find some common ground
But we would still need a few tasters to go for a blind study...we would make it a party.

And for clarification, the TEST shots were all sinkers, but a few of the dialing-in and in-between shots were palatable. We pulled over 40 shots but only tested 4 pairs

Nothing wrong with passion, as long as we can be respectful. Nothing wrong with conflict as long as it isn't personal. I feel that quoting out of context and making jabs at someone's shot preference isn't respectful and crosses the line into unproductive argument.

We both have reasonable intellect and I'll assert that we both pull a pretty nice shot on our good days, even if what I make at home is very different from what you make (not to mention comparing a GS3 to a Cremina - both fine machines but from different worlds).

Suffice to say that even across the ocean and across vastly different M.O.'s we still both love our coffee and have elevated the pursuit in our homes. The loaded vs. single-dose conversation is interesting to me and I'd like to attempt another test. If we can bring the whole conversation to a more civil and gentle level then it may be interesting and fun to post and discuss the results.

So let's do have a happy holiday, and maybe we can continue this conversation in a more friendly manner

Cheers,
Jon