JonR10 wrote:Mr. Benis seems to believe it's a "night and day" difference.
Jon, while getting offended at other's posts, please resist the temptation to become offensive yourself.
A sudden "Mr Benis" and "night and day difference" which drags us into the realms of overstatement for dramatic effect are not appreciated. I understand that you were irritated when you wrote your post and the questions were elementary, but I'm sure they were not intended to be derogatory.
On the other hand I can assure you that despite having a feverish imagination I am quite clear about the differences I have experienced.
Moreover, I have a very clear impression of the taste profile of my Super Jolly with a variety of my regular beans. I have always used the SJ in single-dose mode because it was so convenient and of course a great way of ensuring I got as few stale grinds as possible in every shot. The extractions looked fine etc. and of course waste is greatly reduced (no purges required).
There are consistent, significant differences now that I am only using it with beans in the hopper. One of the most noticeable beans was the Yirgacheffe I had for breakfast. The SJ lags far behind the Nino for this bean, failing to capture much of its floral subtlety and bright zing. In single-dose mode the brightness would always come through as more of a flat sour taste (NOT an underextracted shot overall) and all the floral notes were lost. The result was so flat I used to grind it in my hand grinder, which though very bright (and of course also working in "single-dose mode
) would keep the champagne in the brightness and preserve more of the floral notes. The SJ performs much better with a decent "column" of beans, some of the floral notes come through, there is a little more layering, the deeper notes overwhelm the taste profile less and the brightness has a little fizz rather than acid to it. To me these are significant improvements. The same goes for the sweetness in the Guatemalan, which disappeared in single-dose mode etc.
You can say these are fussy beans, and they are; they have nice subtle effects that are easily lost. Single-dosing on the SJ loses them. It might not have the same effect on chocolate mousse blends. I don't know. I don't drink them.
There were less differences in mouthfeel on the SJ than the Nino. Conversely, there were no Nino single-dose shots that "missed it" in terms of not capturing what was going on in the beans I was using. But the overall definition, layering and yet coherence was much more satisfying and pronounced. These were not "night and day" differences, but they were certainly of the order of magnitude one finds between one top-flight grinder and another. I have no doubt about this. Or that I preferred the hoppered Nino to the single-dose.
You may say this is Princess and Pea territory, which is of course what many would say about "gourmet" of any kind. But this princess has no doubts.
It is clear that we all need to be cautious of the human factor in our findings. It has been suggested that I found what I wanted to (when in fact the situation was the reverse). I waited a week before posting because I wanted to be sure before of what I was reporting, partly because I was worried that people might take these findings personally.
Jon, despite your very great experience, I think you may have allowed yourself to be influenced by your feelings on this occasion. And I write that hoping I can simply state what I observe. I do not write it out of any disrespect. Quite the reverse.
Nevertheless you immediately reported findings you yourself qualified because the bean was unsuitable (both in terms of rest post-rosting and general taste profile) and largely unpleasant. It was hardly appropriate in other words for a comparison of the subtle distinctions in taste one would make between different high-end grinders (and for this I point you to Jim's comments on differences in the TGP/"Can it beat the Robur?" threads in terms of what's noticeable and what's "night and day" - and quite logically, here we're talking about whether a Robur can beat a Robur).
I certainly respect that the tasting was double blind, but do not find anything revealing in the finding that an unpleasant bean tasted equally unpleasant from both grinders. Tests using very forgiving beans would also be less revealing. I am sure you would agree that bean choice is no less important an aspect of test design as whether or not it is double blind.
I will certainly be interested to hear your findings with more suitable beans.
I have no beef with anyone single dosing and don't have the vaguest idea what differences people may find with their own equipment (whether lever, GS3 or Mypressi
) and their own favourite beans. Nor do I think I have a particularly refined palate (and indeed couldn't: I have no sense of smell). But I have absolutely no doubt that single-dosing consistently produces an inferior cup from both my grinders.
I'm not overly concerned about the theory, and tried to overlook anything related to it while doing the initial week of testing. But I have thought about it more since, connecting initial observations with the differences in taste I observed. Single-dose use requires a much finer grind setting and yet looking at what you get in the basket there is a noticeably higher number of large particles compared to using a hopper filled with say 100g of beans. I suspect we have more particles at the extremes when single-dosing, and that although their combined effect is OK to achieve an acceptable pour, the differences between how they extract is what affects the taste and mouthfeel, with there being a greater proportion of underextracted and overextracted particles, with less in between.
Cheers
Mike
LMWDP No. 237
by RapidCoffee on Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:06 am 
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