Versalab M3 dosing by weight

#1: Post by **rbh1515** » August 15th, 2012, 7:43 pm

I posted a previous question on whether I should buy a Versalab grinder and got various responses. Some love it and some hate it, and have had problems with it.
I talked to Laura today at Versalab with some questions. I mentioned that I would not be using a hopper--just weighing the beans, turning on the machine and throwing them in. She said this was not a good idea, i.e. weighing the beans. She said the machine was designed to grind into the portafilter and that you should swipe the excess off the top, and then tamp. I told her my impression was that a lot of users are weighing the beans, grinding the beans, and tamping. Am I mistaken? I thought this was one of the strengths of the machine: you put in 19 grams, and you get 19 out. I realize that you get the "donut pattern" on top, but I assumed that you can just even it out with your finger and tamp. What do others think?
Rob (I'm still obviously considering the M3, and they said they would stand behind it if there were any problems with the shaft having too mush play).

#2: Post by **tekomino** » August 15th, 2012, 8:48 pm

Problem I have with them is that they change damn story when they need to cover inherent design behaviors of the grinder. When I bought mine I explicitly asked about clumping. They told me there is no clumping with M3.

Now that lot of people are reporting clumping, i.e. the coffee getting stuck to the walls inside of the funnel, getting compressed and then falling down the answer is its by design and you should swipe the excess off the top. That's complete BS. That answer was invented after they could not solve the clumping which is inherent behavior of the grinder...

If you have to sweep off the top the M3 is no better than any other grinder where you have to purge 4-8 grams to get stale coffee out of the chute. I grind with mine using precise doses, sometimes there are some clumps but I just flicked them and they fall apart. It would be ridiculous to sweep off the top with grinder designed for no retention...

You should read this interview: Interview with Versalab Inventor John Bicht

From it:

john bicht wrote:Why design a new grinder?

It actually started with David Schomer. One of the first things we discussed was the need to improve espresso grinders. I read Illy's chapter on grinding, and took the DRM grinder apart. It was built like old Ferrari with all the problems such as running sheet metal screws into aluminum. The DRM does the two parts of grinding right-crushing and grinding. However, if fails on the rest-delivering the grounds fresh, unclumped and evenly distributed.

How did you come up with the design of the Versalab M3 grinder?

After looking at the DRM years ago, the grinder I conceived was more complicated. It included weighing and dosing with very high precision. But it was way too complicated, and I was under pressure to finish the espresso machine, so it was put on the back burner. The inspiration for the M3 grinder came from a hand grinder. I had one loaned to me on a trip to New York, after which I figured out that that's all you need: Top funnel, burrs and bottom funnel.

The idea for the sweep came out of necessity. Grounds come out of the burrs charged with static electricity. That is the reason why the Italians direct them through a tunnel out of the burrs and into the doser. Clumping the grounds into a tunnel discharges them of their static electricity. But, that design solves one problem and creates two other problems: It creates clumps, it upsets the grounds natural even density as they come out of the spinning burrs, and it tends to leave traces of old grounds stuck to the tunnel.

#3: Post by **Bob_McBob** » August 15th, 2012, 8:55 pm

It does seem like Versalab gives customers various contradictory information when asked about grinder issues and general usage. I would certainly not be interested in the M3 if it weren't designed for easy single dosing, which is really its major selling point to the online coffee hobbyist community. Versalab still seems to be trying to sell it as the ultimate cafe grinder, but I really have to wonder how many are actually used in commercial establishments vs. home kitchens.

#4: Post by **cpreston** » August 15th, 2012, 11:51 pm

With mine I weigh the beans in and the grinds out. They are usually within 0.3g or so. There are a few minor "clumps" on top that are so loose that it doesn't matter whether I bother to break them up or not. If the grinder is left running for a little while after grinding is finished, I don't even have those.

#5: Post by **ronsil** » August 16th, 2012, 2:43 am

That's been my experience over the past 3-4 years. I always weigh the beans in & used to weigh the grinds out. It became so consistent that I no longer weigh the grinds out. I smooth the top with my index finger pushing the coffee into the well. I then chop with the same finger doing a straight cross & then a diagonal cross.

Never have any splattering using a bottomless PF.

I would agree I do not see it easily fitting into a commercial environment but for home use I find it unbeatable.

Ron

#6: Post by **Bak Ta Lo** » August 16th, 2012, 4:26 am

rbh1515 wrote:I talked to Laura today at Versalab with some questions. I mentioned that I would not be using a hopper--just weighing the beans, turning on the machine and throwing them in. She said this was not a good idea, i.e. weighing the beans.

Wait, this does not make sense, no M3 uses a hopper in the traditional sense. The M3 hopper design is not a traditional hopper, it uses various size rings to volumetrically measure out a dose of beans, then drops them in the upper funnel down a little slide, working just like if you measure it by hand when single dosing and pour the beans in.

There is no hopper for the M3 that applies bean column pressure to the beans as they are ground, like a traditional grinder hopper. It basically always grinds a single dose.

#7: Post by **Bob_McBob** » August 16th, 2012, 4:32 am

rbh1515 wrote:I talked to Laura today at Versalab with some questions.

Bak Ta Lo wrote:Wait, this does not make sense

Every Versalab thread ever.

#8: Post by **Nik** » August 16th, 2012, 7:24 am

I have a hopper assembly for my M3 but don't use it. I have been single dosing since I bought it last December. I almost gave up on the Versalab during the first couple months that I owned it but after many conversations back and forth between Laura and John it was identified that my burrs were defective. They promptly replaced the burrs and after a break in period of about a month the grinder is performing beautifully. There was some clumping with the bad burrs but none since installing the new burrs. Yes, there is an aggravating drop of grinds once you remove the portafilter but by turning the machine off/on several times before removing the portafilter there is less amount. Should be zero but it isn't. PIA to have to clean/polish the inside of the bowl but I can deal with it. Doesn't take that long but doesn't help very long either. Don't know the weight of it but I suspect it's 3-4 grams. Like Denis I will not use the swipe method or NSEW to prep the basket. Shouldn't have to. Simple straight down tamp and polish and that's it. No channeling, not spritzing, single stream from the start. Some complain about pop-corning of the beans during grinding. I don't get that either. Perhaps I am lucky and got a special machine but it's a keeper for me. I am not very tolerant of ongoing problems and once my burr problem was identified it's been a joy to use. Both Laura and John have been responsive. No complaints.

#9: Post by **Terranova** » August 16th, 2012, 7:31 am

According to VL, the M3 was designed for overdosing and wiping of the bit on top, to have a perfect distribution.

tekomino wrote:Now that lot of people are reporting clumping, i.e. the coffee getting stuck to the walls inside of the funnel, getting compressed and then falling down the answer is its by design and you should swipe the excess off the top.

If the shaft is running centered / the wiper running fine, there should be no retention in the lower funnel.
Humidity doesn't matter.
It's just after switching it on/off there will be some "egg dropping" grinds falling of the wiper.
I have about 0,1-0,4 g retention in the funnel /wiper, in some weeks i have the chance to get the inside of the lower funnel teflon coated, I will let you know of any progress.

rbh1515 wrote: (I'm still obviously considering the M3, and they said they would stand behind it if there were any problems with the shaft having too mush play).

You should not be to optimistic and don't expect much more than some glue to do the "magic"

Measuring the bean weight by scale, makes the whole procedure "nerd like".
When I have some friends at home and I have to weigh the beans on the scale for every shot, makes me feel like a nerd and even my friends would smile in sense of " is it such a big deal to make an espresso" ?
The volumetric dosing system is the perfect solution for me, once you find the right bushing size for the beans you are using, it is just a very cool procedure.
I prefer the casual easy going cook to one who acts with pharmaceutical precision... at least it should appear as easy going.
Without making fun of anyone, preferring the pharmacist approach / method - no hurt feelings.
Just as the tamping procedure, which should be done, cool and smooth in ~5sec. (IMHO)

Cheers

Frank

#10: Post by **BlrdFX** » August 16th, 2012, 8:16 am

I am awaiting delivery of a new Versalab M3 and have been following these Threads on it.

If you have static issues then I would suggest finding a better way to electrically ground the machine. Maybe even an electrical brush, like on a motor, on the burr drive shaft but I would bet the fixed part of the burr system is grounded as well as the lower chute. Has anyone tested that with an ohm meter?

As far as dosing by volume as opposed to by weight. If you want to dose by weight and it rises above the portafilter then use a small (in height) funnel to hold the grounds in the portafilter while it is being dispensed by the grinder. Take the portafilter & funnel away from the grinder and settle it all by gently tapping the portafilter on the tamping stand. The popcorn effect of beans flying off into space (if you grind by weight) would have more effect on the dose IMHO