weebit_nutty wrote:But, still, I suspect a using a whisk (aka WDT or Weiss Distribution Technique) would improve the shot more than a sieve would.

I've only ever heard of sieves being used for brewed coffee-not for espresso shots.

A service technician might use a pocket sieve as a quality control check on an espresso grinder-to determine whether burrs need to be replaced.

I have experimented with sieves for espresso a bit. I used a 300 micron sieve. It is utterly amazing how much sieving changes things, and not necessarily for the better. Flavours are dramatically different. One can essentially eliminate fines completely. To me that is not a good thing to do.

You can also reduce fines, however, by shaking the ground coffee in the sieve (I used 300 micron) until a certain amount of fines has been removed. One must grind the coffee substantially finer whether you reduce fines or eliminate them. (By the way, the sieved fines make wonderful Turkish coffee.)

The last experimental sieved coffee I made involved grinding 17 grams of an Ethiopian coffee with a Pharos, and shaking it in the sieve until I had collected 3 grams of fines. I used the rest in a La Pavoni Europiccola. (I closed the burrs to 165 degrees from closed, normally it is about 200 degrees.) With this amount of fines removed it began to taste more like French press coffee than espresso to me. The 165 degree burr setting with the fines removed required about the same force on the lever as the 200 degree setting with the fines present.

I am convinced that for espresso there is an ideal amount of fines, and that the ideal grinder produces the right amount of them!

I am convinced that for espresso there is an ideal amount of fines, and that the ideal grinder produces the right amount of them!

No argument from anyone there. The subject of discussion is generally about what the ideal distribution is:

http://www.mattperger.com/The-EK43-Part-Two

"Should I buy a sieve to reduce fines?"

No

I have attempted that in the past and others have traveled that journey more extensively before and after I tried.

({It just doesn't work} that is too conclusive EDIT What I meant is is just hasn't worked for me) I don't know what else to say because I don't want to tell the long story.

The short story is apparently controlling the number of fines in the grind does either very little improvement, none at all, or actually makes things worse. Outcomes were for the most part unpredictable.

There is a lot more in this equation to consider than fines.

This has been my experience.

odarwin wrote:hi guys,



considering that im planning to buy the lido 2 in the future, do you guys think that the sieve will just be useless once i shift to the lido 2?
any thoughts?

( {yes it will be usless with either the Encore or the Lido 2 USELESS NOT} OK OK useless is not a good word to use because that is not true, sorry for the rant)

What I meant to say is for what you want to use it for I would not recommend it because I find sifting fines to come nowhere near a resolution for a poor grind nor is it a guarantee for improvement in the cup with every type of coffee and/or grind quality. This has been my experience.

As pointed out sifting has been used by baristas to fine tune the coffee they use.

I agree that a sieve shouldn't be necessary with a Lido. And I agree that there are many brewing variables that are more important to your results in the cup than sieving to reduce fines. But I'm not sure how you concluded that: "It just doesn't work."

Matt Perger incorporated grounds sifting into his 1st place 2012 World Barista Cup routine:

http://sprudge.com/feelin-fines-breakin ... p-win.html

Erin McCarthy followed suit in 2013 and took home the trophy:

http://dinersjournal.blogs.nytimes.com/ ... blogs&_r=0

It's safe to say that unless you have command of a whole lot of other variable, sifting might not work as intended. But it can clearly be used effectively by a world class barista for fine tuning a cup.

Yes I suppose it can if you are dealing with a specific coffee or few specific coffees with which you have found through trial and error that sifting the fines resulted in improvement.

Sifting fines is not useless if it happens to improve the flavor of your type of coffee with all other variables considered.

I just bought a set of sieves for filter coffee; 250 microns for the fines and 850 microns for the boulders. My plan is to lose quite a lot of coffee, something around 15-20% of the input mass.

(Whilst I don't exactly relish the idea of wasting precious single origin coffee, I know this is going to make me happier. In fact, the more expensive the coffee, the more I will want to ensure I don't allow fines and boulders to ruin my cup, thank you very much.)

My end goal is to address the problem where, if you don't happen to have a high-end grinder sitting around the kitchen at home (i.e. $1.5k+), it becomes genuinely difficult to figure out whether a coffee was over- or under-extracted. When using grinds with a large particle distribution, not even a TDS meter will help you understand whether your coffee is over or under. Well - of course it will tell you the *total* amount of solutes that were drawn into the water (i.e. average extraction) but doesn't clear up the problem of the fact that your coffee was over-extracted and the other half under. Bitter and weak all in the same cup!

Actually I was almost tempted to get 2 sieves at 350 and 750, to further narrow the particle size distribution. And maybe even - just for testing purposes (i.e. not everyday brewing!) - 500 and 700. That ought to create a ridiculously consistent grind size. On the hypothesis that the more consistent the grind size, the greater clarity of flavour we are achieving for a given coffee, I may end up doing this later.

By the way - for UK people - I found a great source for sieves. www.impact-test.co.uk, Milton Keynes. I ordered 2 sieves (which are all priced the same) plus a retainer / lid, and shipping, for a few quid over £100. Another UK manufacturer based in Wimbledon was around 3 times the price.

I just bought a set of sieves for filter coffee; 250 microns for the fines and 850 microns for the boulders. My plan is to lose quite a lot of coffee, something around 15-20% of the input mass.

(Whilst I don't exactly relish the idea of wasting precious single origin coffee, I know this is going to make me happier. In fact, the more expensive the coffee, the more I will want to ensure I don't allow fines and boulders to ruin my cup, thank you very much.)

My end goal is to address the problem where, if you don't happen to have a high-end grinder sitting around the kitchen at home (i.e. $1.5k+), it becomes genuinely difficult to figure out whether a coffee was over- or under-extracted. When using grinds with a large particle distribution, not even a TDS meter will help you understand whether your coffee is over or under. Well - of course it will tell you the *total* amount of solutes that were drawn into the water (i.e. average extraction) but doesn't clear up the problem of the fact that your coffee was over-extracted and the other half under. Bitter and weak all in the same cup!

Actually I was almost tempted to get 2 sieves at 350 and 750, to further narrow the particle size distribution. And maybe even - just for testing purposes (i.e. not everyday brewing!) - 500 and 700. That ought to create a ridiculously consistent grind size. On the hypothesis that the more consistent the grind size, the greater clarity of flavour we are achieving for a given coffee, I may end up doing this later.

By the way - for UK people - I found a great source for sieves. http://www.impact-test.co.uk, Milton Keynes. I ordered 2 sieves (which are all priced the same) plus a retainer / lid, and shipping, for a few quid over £100. Another UK manufacturer based in Wimbledon was around 3 times the price.

You don't need a £1200 grinder to make excellent filter coffee at home and it is my opinion that spending £100 on sieves is probably overkill. With all due respect, you say that you know that sieving your coffee will make you happier but perhaps once the thrill of acquisition wears off you may realise you have wasted your money. That being said, having a full set of sieves might be nice to do some home analysis of grind distribution. Each to their own.

You can still over/under extract even with an EK43 in the kitchen. It's user input that makes the coffee.

I discovered that I could make fantastic filter coffee when I bought an OE Lido, it was an unbelievable step up from the Hario slim I had bought as my first coffee grinder. The fines present in the Lido grounds were negligible and the consistency of particle size seemed great, so choosing grind size was the only variable there. However, the greatest gains in quality came from carefully considering ALL of the parameters. Since I learned how to identify the mechanisms of under and over extraction I haven't made a bad cup. I brew coffee with chemex, clever dripper, kalita wave, aeropress and french press using beans from excellent roasters in the UK. With some of the best tap water quality in the UK, all I have to control is grind size, water temperature and volume and can enjoy the differences between all of the different brew methods.

Perhaps for your longer term happiness you may wish to consider investing in a Knock hausgrind or an OE Lido 2. At around £120-£140 they represent excellent value. I have hands-on experience with the hausgrind and can vouch for how brilliant it is (TomC and others will agree), so much so that I have one on order to take the Lido's place in my kitchen (the Lido will assume the role of my office grinder). I have a Lido 2 on order also but that is more to do with a obsession with fine things and curiosity. The cup quality achievable using these grinders is now well documented and, if I may be so bold, a damn sight easier than sieving every dose to get a reasonable cup of coffee.

Just out of interest, what grinder do you use currently hazymat?