I know I'm entering deep waters here, but I'm finally getting around to blind-testing two grinders. My method will be simple and practical, and aimed at entry-level home baristas like myself. The basic question is "will grinder X make shots that I find consistently better than shots from grinder Y?" This might be of some use for people who are considering which hand grinder to buy. Here is the kit I'll use for starters, a Sama Lusso, a new Knock hausgrind, and an old Dienes box mill:



My method:

Grind one shot with each grinder (previously dialed in for the given coffee and dose). Fill two baskets, randomly chose one, and pull the shot. Can I tell which grinder was used? Simple.

First data point: 16g of Musetti 100% Arabica espresso (no, not Illy!). I tasted the shot and thought it was very good. I guessed hausgrind but I was wrong. It was the Dienes.

I'll keep posting as the results come in.

PC

peacecup wrote:"will grinder X make shots that I find consistently better than shots from grinder Y?" ... Can I tell which grinder was used? ...

I suggest that these are very different questions. Also consider that grinder X may do better when grinding coffee A and grinder Y may do better when grinding coffee B. So "consistently" requires testing with a large number of variables.

I'll agree that you can answer "with the coffee, roast, temperatures, etc, etc I currently have, do I prefer grinder X over Y?".

jonr wrote:I suggest that these are very different questions. Also consider that grinder X may do better when grinding coffee A and grinder Y may do better when grinding coffee B. So "consistently" requires testing with a large number of variables.

Why is that ?
Does it mean you prefer some roasts ground by a mix out of over- and underextracted particles ?
IMHO the grinder with the less play, the one which is built most accurate will win the race on any roast and not just on a few.
The one with the most parallel burrs and without any mechanical interventions.

Thanks for reporting your results, Jack! It will be interesting to see how your tests play out over time. I haven't tried anything similar with my Lido2, in part because it is annoying to dial it in for espresso and I already have great grinders for that purpose, but I might give it a go at some point just out of curiosity.

Frank, I can imagine coffee making a difference when it comes to distinguishing between grinders that are similar, but not identical, in output quality. On "average" coffees where there are not many interesting flavors to be found, a slight difference might not be perceptible, whereas on higher-quality coffees with a wider array of flavors present, the difference might become apparent.

Similarly, if the difference between two grinders is that one amplifies bright notes while the other amplifies deeper notes, then I could imagine that a person who starts with a coffee that is already bright might find it "too bright" on the former, and "just right" on the latter. A coffee in which chocolates and roast flavors dominate, however, might taste best on the former grinder, which helps to balance it out.

Note, for instance, that those who promote flat-burred bulk grinders like the EK43 consistently urge that such grinders have an advantage primarily for those who are roasting quite lightly and targeting high extractions. On a different roast, or for a different style of shot, the advantages (reportedly) dissipate.

I should clarify the "practical" in the title. I mean that it is something a) that I can do during my usual brewing routine, whenever I am brewing two shots at a time, and 2) it will answer the practical question of whether I can easily perceive taste differences between two grinders, during an "average" brew session.

The motivation for these tests was that after a couple of months of daily use of the hausgrind, I tested the Dienes and was surprised at how good the espresso was. I won't say better, but it seemed equally good. So I decided dig a little deeper.

I have no doubt that fine-scale differences exist in the cup among different grinders. And of course, in an ideal world one would want the most capable grinder available, so that over time one might discover subtle flavors that perhaps would otherwise remain hidden. As soon as I can get my hands on a larger-burr grinder I'll try that as well.

Round two: 18g dose Musetti 100% Arabica. Pulled a very nice ristretto (didn't weigh, but will start to).

Great taste, body. Guessed Knock again. Wrong again, it was the Dienes.

Score so far: Two times the Dienes has fooled me, guessing it was the Knock.

So, I'm 100% wrong so far...

Thanks for doing this and sharing your finding!

Just to clarify...are you pulling both the baskets, or just pull one of the two and guess?

Are you expecting any difference between the Hausgrind and Dienes? And how do you base your guess on? For example, the assumption could be you expect Hausgrind to have better body, so you guessed the shots with better body to be hausgrind.

I'm just pulling one shot and guessing. The other goes for my wife or guest.

My "hypothesis" is that the hausgrind should be noticeably better, given its larger burrs and better alignment. So, when I taste a shot, if it's really good, I guess Knock. I did this twice, and both times it was the Dienes.

SO, this method is probably not going to work. I would need to guess correctly now 6 times at least to say I can easily tell a "better" from a "worse" grinder. I can already see that by tasting one shot at a time it will be difficult FOR ME to tell these two grinders apart reliably. More experienced tasters might be able to do so. Mark (creative nickname) has said, I think, that he can tell his Pharos from a Dienes using a similar method.

The problem with direct double-blind comparisons is that one needs to pull two successive shots relatively quickly, then taste them. I might be able to pull this off, but even then there would be some inherent difference between the shots due to the order in which they were pulled on the Sama. Otherwise, one needs to wait 1-2 minutes for group to return to idle temperature, and the first shot would be cold.

I might add that the Dienes has been used more or less daily for 10 years, minimum 50 kg of beans through it, and it was used when I bought it. The burrs have been thoroughly seasoned. I suspect the Knock will get even better as the burrs become seasoned - right now it's just had 2-3 kg through it.

peacecup wrote:My "hypothesis" is that the hausgrind should be noticeably better, given its larger burrs and better alignment. So, when I taste a shot, if it's really good, I guess Knock. I did this twice, and both times it was the Dienes.

But doesn't the hausgrind have a typical small conical burrs, similar to the Dienes? This testing would probably be more effective if it's between a *maybe* Pharos/HG/K10 and the Dienes/Hausgrind.

Also, by tasting single shot rather than comparing the two, it is even difficult to know if there's even a difference in taste to begin with.

Regardless, I am still following the thread to see how thing goes.


p/s: loves your setup in the first post btw.