I have a *stock* Pharos.

I had difficulty with it at first -- sliding around, aching hands, banging on it...

But now I hold it with my left hand so that my thumb goes around the burr and my fingers hook around one of the long stays. I stand straight at the counter with the grinder under me, and keep the speed on the grind and moderate pressure down on the handle. I was remarking to my wife this morning that the actual grinding time is faster than my electric grinder. I'm frankly amazed at how fast this thing is.

Bear in mind that my roasts have gotten lighter and the grind a lot finer as I switched to a VST basket and do a long preinfusion and grind finer to compensate. I spin through 19grams in no time... again, the left hand position made all the difference in the world and there are no hand aches. I have delicate keyboarding hands... not the monster hams of my father. I am also grinding on a slippery cutting board sheet!

As for whacking, I don't use my hand. I use the edge of the big rubber foot that comes with the grinder. A nice dead-blow tool. A few whacks around the top with the grinder angled 45 degrees with the funnel hole at the bottom and all the grinds are out. No RDT or WDT, no shaking, and no injuries.

The HG-One looks very cool but my wife has no interest in making espresso - she only wants to drink it. I'm spending the $$ difference on green beans to roast in my new $15 air popper.

It's ridiculous to argue this thread like there are undeniable facts applicable to everyone. Our choices are hopefully based on cost-benefit analyses. Lay out the issues and the costs and we can figure out what's right for us. Are you seriously arguing whether RDT is necessary for everyone for a particular grinder? You're ignoring bean types, roast levels, oil levels, humidity levels, blah blah blah.

Don't turn these forums into Apple vs Android type silliness.

galumay wrote:Seriously? I reckon it changes everything. My evaluation of either the HG-One or the Pharos would be quite different if I had not owned them and used them for extensive periods of time. Using one or both once and evaluating them is hardly going to allow an informed review or comparison.

I never said I only used a Pharos once. And yes, a longer time with a device will give you more detailed info into it's quirks and function, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to make some simple conclusions on how hard it is to use something. How many times do you need to test drive a lawn mower before you can assess how hard it is to push?

I'm not surprised I'm raising the hairs on the backs of a few Pharos fans. I don't really care. I'm not bashing anything, we're all entitled to our opinions. I know it's not a wildly popular stand to take, to criticize something that Doug has made. He is certainly due his respect for making what he did, he put a titan grade grinder in the hands of many people who otherwise probably wouldn't be able to accommodate one, be it size or cost of an alternative. But that doesn't mean we should blindfold ourselves to subjective comparisons of other options. And at what point does a subjective assessment become a more objective fact? When more and more people decide for themselves which is easier to use? If the balance tips only 51/49 in favor of one or the other, does that then make their assessments more valid?

If budget is your biggest concern, then the Pharos literally owns the market because it is capable of a quality grind and there's little else out there other than hoping an eBay score on an old wood hand grinder might make decent espresso, which is too much of a crapshoot. But after modifying the Pharos with all the aftermarket stuff in order to make it work better, you're around $200-300 away from the HG-one.

When it comes to something you'll use on a daily basis, and the item will likely outlive you and even your grandchildren, then it makes sense to save up and buy the best you can afford. For the value and ease of use on a daily basis, I think it's clear the HG-One has it beat by a mile.

happycat wrote:
It's ridiculous to argue this thread like there are undeniable facts applicable to everyone. Our choices are hopefully based on cost-benefit analyses. Lay out the issues and the costs and we can figure out what's right for us. Are you seriously arguing whether RDT is necessary for everyone for a particular grinder? You're ignoring bean types, roast levels, oil levels, humidity levels, blah blah blah.

Don't turn these forums into Apple vs Android type silliness.

There's nothing ridiculous about having a discussion about a grinder. Thats what this forum is for. If it hurts your sensibilities, then don't join in.

And, please tell me where I specifically stated that EVERYONE must RDT for EVERY GRINDER? I'm not ignoring anything, blah, blah, blah... If it works for you, use it. It works for me, I use it. Simple as that.

Just in case anyone wants to get rid of his Pharos because it is so uncomfortable, send it my way. I'll gladly use it instead of knowing it's gathering dust. Well, you can't blame me for trying!

A long time ago a friend was visiting, and wanting to grind his own coffee. The hand grinder was sliding around the counter a little, and he was asking "why don't they put a handle on these things?"

The ergonomics of grinding on the counter with a typical hand grinder (i.e. a Zass box mill) are simply not that good. I don't know if the Pharos has solved this - the HG one appears to have tried.

Even when grinding with a box mill in the lap, there is often 1-2 "stops" wherein one must restart the grinder. Perhaps the geared drive of the HG one eliminates these? The German mill makers used gear drives and heavy bases for the larger mills, not unlike the HG.

I must agree with Tom that simply being blind to the ergonomics of hand grinding does not benefit anyone. Whenever anyone asks I state that hand grinding is not for everyone. As I've also stated, I've used niether of the mills in question here, but I suppose they each have their ergonomic idiosyncrasies. I potential buyer migh wish to know these.

PC

The only reason I brought the question up was that I honestly like the Pharos in every regard except the strength required - It's a piece of cake with *$'s-style roasts, but a bit of a pain for the lighter-style roasts that I normally drink. I have a few extra coffee-budget $'s sitting around and was was hoping to get feedback from those that have had first-hand experience with both to give their objective opinion on the two. Didn't mean to cause such a heated debate.

Hi Folks:

To turn down the heat a bit, I'm a friend of Tom's. My reading of this thread is he was clearly writing about ergonomic differences. Also he's tried my Pharos and maybe others.

To take this out of the circular arguments going on here we're going to get together soon with some other H-B folks and can bring both grinders for others' opinions. My Pharos has most of the voodoodaddy mods. I'll post on the San Francisco get-together thread to see if someone can bring a stock Pharos, although I used mine that way for quite awhile and can remember how it compares modded.

For the record with the mods the HG grinder is about $400 more. And the stock Pharos is an unbeatable value. Grind quality doesn't change when you mod it. If there is an ergonomic improvement with the HG One I don't think they serve the same market and I'd guess both manufacturers are selling plenty of grinders. Probably the HG One is easier for grinding, and Tom wouldn't say otherwise if his experience was different. But with the Pharos dogs that difference may have narrowed at least. The form factors and appearance are different. Hand grinding is so quiet compared to electric it's an advantage of both, especially if your spouse likes to sleep in.

@ Jack, I found it hard to use the Pharos as a knee mill. Those plates just dug into my legs and I couldn't get a good grip. With the dogs available that's no longer an issue.

For the record, using RDT, my Pharos grounds are fluffy and uniform with no clumping and no static retention. I don't use WDT but someone who does can try that at our gathering. My modded Pharos is easy enough to use that the Super Jolly has been neglected. And of course the grind quality is much better with the Pharos. I'm a big guy so would not need the Pharos dogs, but with those available maybe people who struggled turning the Pharos on its fine setting with hard beans will find it much easier.

So Tom, let's have a friendly grinder comparison when we next meet and post about that.

@ coffeesnob1, I've found I can go coarser than expected on the Pharos and still get good flow while easing the grinding effort. This may be a property of conical titan grinders. Someone else might comment on that. We can certainly compare ease of grinding and if they aren't available maybe we can simulate the dogs by having someone hold down the Pharos while using the stock handle for a rough comparison.

Yep, I'll be glad to bring it to either or both the tentative meet-ups that are in the works.

I wasn't surprised a thread like this would stray off from it's initial path of just ergonomics, but I felt it was worth it to address them directly.

You and I won't argue, that's for sure. Let's all chill, okay? Tom and I and others will do some actual comparisons.