Ok. Let me play some devil's advocate.

So I dial in by taste. Everything is hunky dory. But then one shot is just incredible... ya know the God shot. Well why is that? Did just all the forces in nature come to together in harmony for that one second to make the perfect shot?

I think not. Now if I had something to measure that God shot, then I would have numbers to shoot for. If that God shot had a slightly higher or lower EY then I would know I should adjust my technique to try an replicate that.

For me I don't want to constantly be chasing by taste alone. If I had some numbers to shoot for I could be using something quantitative to verify.

I look at it like this, it's a tool, nothing more, nothing less. If you are deeply enough involved in this "hobby" and feel it will help you learn a little more about it, why not have one.
I'm a big time bass fisherman, I have several thousand dollars worth of high tech electronics in my boat but not one piece of all that electronics has ever caught a fish. What it does, it helps me understand what's going on underneath the waters surface that I can't see so it improves my odds of catching more fish. Now, would a person fishing off the bank with a cane poll and bobber need all that electronics, NO. Probably would not even understand what it was showing him. He's just looking at all that electronics and thinking how many fish dinners he could have had for what I spent.
Same with the VST, it helps you understand what's going on with you shot, if it taste worse when you increase TDS at a certain temp, adjust temp, change grind or what ever, still get increased TDS and have a total different experience. Do I need or want such a tool, not no but hell no. I'm just fishing off the bank, all I want to do is be able to make a good cappuccino every now and then. The people at this level in the game have grinders that cost twice what my whole setup cost. They have a desire to understand as much as possible about what's going on with that shot of espresso, I just want to catch a few fish for dinner. Totally different mind set and I'm not going criticize anyone for how they want to learn something.
Like the two golfers playing in the rain and see two people in a boat fishing. One golfer comments "look at those fools fishing in the rain", one of the guys in the boat looks over at the golfers and comments "look at those fools playing golf in the rain". Again, totally different mind set.

^^ Well Said BenKeith!!

To use your analogy. I find it funny that the serious coffee geeks on here... all who spend thousands of dollars on all sorts of grinders, espresso machines (like the LM GS/3) are quick to invalidate the usefulness of a VST.

For me, Im not the guy fishing off the shore. Im trying to learn as much about this coffee thing as possible. I want consistency and repeatability in my shots.

I've got you, Joco: I f'ing hate my power meter.

Joco wrote: To use your analogy. I find it funny that the serious coffee geeks on here... all who spend thousands of dollars on all sorts of grinders, espresso machines (like the LM GS/3) are quick to invalidate the usefulness of a VST.

It could lead you astray... If the numbers are right, you might equate that to "this is how perfect espresso should taste." Unfortunately, that espresso could be mediocre. You could pull an espresso that tastes best to you, but the numbers say "this is not good espresso." You keep chasing the numbers instead of making espresso the way you like it...

No one here is preventing you from going that route. You can buy it and use it to your heart's content. It could very well prove to be very useful too you. There is more than one way to skin a cat. I have measured TDS and %EXT, but it did not suddenly improve my brews or espresso. If you are using high quality beans, using good equipment, learning proper technique, and continually trying to improve those techniques you're going to be making great espresso.

Remember. I'm not using it to just make good espresso. But to also help with repeatability.

What I don't get is why so many people are against the thought a VST could actually help people. Most on here have claimed it's an expensive device, yet people will buy a LM GS/3.

Joco wrote:^^ Well Said BenKeith!!

To use your analogy. I find it funny that the serious coffee geeks on here... all who spend thousands of dollars on all sorts of grinders, espresso machines (like the LM GS/3) are quick to invalidate the usefulness of a VST.

For me, Im not the guy fishing off the shore. Im trying to learn as much about this coffee thing as possible. I want consistency and repeatability in my shots.

There are big holes in the logic here. The problem is that the VST cannot be the be all, end all of coffee. It will never be that: It's just some more information that doesn't supersede the information you already have from your taste buds. To meet the analogy, it's like taking a picture of a fish AFTER you already have it in the ice chest. It doesn't matter what pole you are using, the fish is the fish. Your taste buds are the electronic sonar in the analogy.

But by all means get a VST and see how much you use it. I would guess that by 3 months you will rarely pick it up. Ultimately, you will say stuff like, "I know that if I extract 17 grams of coffee in 29 ounces of water that I will have x-TDS". So what then? You have a number to show what you already know: a good balanced cup of coffee and nobody really cares about the number. The positive reinforcement just isn't necessary.

In the alternative, you can use the same recipe and pull a crap shot and then check and see that TDS is off. But you already knew that because you tasted (instantaneously) the coffee and considered it a crappy shot. The solution is to adjust your grinds accordingly and continue, something you would do without a VST. The VST can't tell you how much to change your grinder settings--this is something you just have to get to know.

The entire VST argument is just another layer of something you have to do, and measure, which is probably not meaningful, and which takes away from coffee enjoyment.

Regarding cost, last time I looked a VST was like $700+. That is about 40% of the cost of my espresso machine, and the VST doesn't really do anything but give me a pat on the back for what I already know about flavor.

I'm just playing devil's advocate here. Based on my providing a powermeter analogy, I like numbers just like everyone else. But they need to be meaningful numbers and I think that VST is only useful for very limited circumstances in a coffeebar trying to create uniformity among baristas or barista competition prep (basically the same thing: consistency among people or shots). But that consistency will still have a margin of error that is pretty huge, so you still can't hang your hat on the VST number, in my opinion.

Ultimately, if you can't have a preferred flavor, then the VST isn't going to help you anyway. Because of this, the numbers aren't useful.

damonbowe wrote:...I think that VST is only useful for very limited circumstances in a coffeebar trying to create uniformity among baristas or barista competition prep (basically the same thing: consistency among people or shots). But that consistency will still have a margin of error that is pretty huge, so you still can't hang your hat on the VST number, in my opinion.

Ultimately, if you can't have a preferred flavor, then the VST isn't going to help you anyway. Because of this, the numbers aren't useful.

EXACTLY!!! I want consistency and repeatability. And the numbers will help to tell me why I liked its taste.

And I agree with you. After a few months it's probably not an everyday device in the home but something to use when dialing in new blends.

(FYI you can pick up used VSTs for about $500)

Joco wrote:Remember. I'm not using it to just make good espresso. But to also help with repeatability.

I totally agree with your use for consistency but:
a. it's not changing your dial in method
b. how many shots are you pulling?
c. it's going to be a pain in the ass to measure your coffee
d. It's $700+! (make that $500...I can't keep up with your info )
e. If you want consistency, invest in a $20 scale and a timer. Much cheaper.
f. When baristas are worried about consistency for pulling with a VST, they have NO TIMER, NO SCALE. I'm using all caps yelling font because it's totally free-hand pulling for some situations, like competitions. I would consider you an espresso badass if you just walked up to a machine and ran off 5x perfect shots in a row with no timer and no scale. But that's going to take you years of training...