HB wrote:No, not really. The TWIST is an innovative design that broke the rules. Extrapolating its accomplishment to suggest "espresso machines just make water hot and push it through the puck" is a misleading oversimplification.

Over simplification, obviously. But misleading? I may be missing something.
I'm not suggesting that water temperature isn't important to good espresso, I'm not even going to suggest that all the bells and whistles that are hung on some of the more expensive machines are not remarkably good at making the elusive 'great' shot an almost mundane re-occurence with their convenience. But all of the things that deal with temperature can be done away with and replaced with skills, timing, nouse, or some combination of the three.
Nothing like that can be done with a grinder. It either does it's job, or the cup suffers. I can think of no kind of dance, no adjustment to the tamp, the pull, the timing, or the espresso machine that will make up for lousy grind.
I am not going to say that there isn't one, but I haven't heard of it yet...

I read into Psyd's response to peacecup's question a bit of poetic license designed to emphasize and explain the function of a good grinder - hand powered or electric - much more so than the intention of discounting the espresso machine's role with the simplified description. The more recent posts here have the makings of a lively thread on their own though.

I was there until you start talking nonsense. Great grinder first, sure. But stable, predictable, adjustable temperature, VERY much second, and impossible to achieve with budget gear.

innermusic wrote:and impossible to achieve with budget gear.

Difficult. Yep, the more expensive a machine is, the more stable, adjustable, dependable, and repeatable that temp gets. With budget gear, you have to heat/flush, drain, dance, hold your mouth right, and act and react consistently to get the temps to repeat, and be stable. But it can (search the archives here, and especially those on CG) be done. Even Silvia can produce a regular excellent espresso with great techniques. Toss in a PID and a bit of tinkering and you have a machine under a grand that'll outpull most of the coffee shops in most American cities all day long.

Again, my point is that if your grind isn't up to the job, no twists, turns, gyrations, prayers, sacrifices, or incantations are gonna make your $12,587 espresso machine put out a great doppio.

Budget machine and excellent grinder mans that excellent espresso is a possibility.
Amazing machine and krappy grinder (budget really isn't an indication of quality here, always, because of the argument that my $40 hand-grinder, 16 grams in 40 turns, rivals my Majors in quality shots) and you still have no chance of great espresso.
Which leads me to the conclusion that the temp stability add-ons and gadgets, while nice, convenient, and making espresso production a whole lot less of a PIA, contribute less to the cup than the grinder.

Or, it could just be me. I'm just a guy on the interwebs with an opinion. I've been wrong a lot, it ain't like it'll be a new thing for me! ; >