Jim, I'm not touting the Rossi as a good grinder.

In fact, I've read that it is barely adequate. It is certainly better than the Gaggia MDF that came with my second hand Gaggia Classic[*] and it was free, except for the cost of new burrs. That said, I admit, I do dislike it. It's gratuitously ugly, very loud and annoying to have around.

However, I don't know what you mean by "accident prone". Does it mean the operator has accidents? The grinder has accidents? Or the grinder is a victim of accidents? As much as the grinder annoys me, it seems very consistent, (I made mine step-less), relatively easy to brush out and blow grounds out etc. So, if you look at a grinder as a set of burrs driven by a motor, what exactly do people hate about the Rossi? (Other than the things I listed above).

dan

[*]Now that I think about, it the Classic has the same annoying attributes as the Rossi, which is why it is gathering dust even though I installed a nice PID. I can't sell things on this list, as much as I'd like to, but one of these days I'll get up enough energy to Ebay it.

I've been continuing to test the hand grinders. I don't have the Zass wall mounted one yet, but the American and British grinders don't seem to work, yet very well, for espresso. One thing I noticed is that they are spring loaded and they don't have good bearings. By the this, I mean there is play side to side and in and out. The side to side play is simply a loose fit of the shaft in the bearing. Both are cast iron and not properly machined. It wouldn't be hard to eliminate that play by retrofitting a bronze bearing that accurately fits the the cast iron shaft or the other way around.

I might do it, since it can't hurt and might help in the consistency of the grinding. If that seems to be heading in the right direction, I may replace the spring with a positive adjustment that didn't allow the burrs to spread apart, which they may do depending on the bean load etc. I'm not quite sure about this. I could see the spring being a sort of safety design because it would keep things from jamming if there was a rock or twig in the hopper.

Anyone tried something similar?

dan

(They all work quite well for drip coffee-- so ultimately I'd like to keep two-- one for drip and one for espresso.)

peacecup wrote:It's a long-standing HB mantra that the grinder is all (or nearly so) in espresso. I've asked, but never gotten a concise reply as to the why of this. That is, what is it that allows a grinder to produce a better espresso.

Seriously, though, I would like to know why.

I've taken up the mantra, "Grinders make espresso, Espresso machines just make water hot and push it through the puck".
The reason is that the grounds are more similar with a good grinder. Each 'ground' is sized similar to those others around it. With boulders and dust, you're finding the extraction time for the median, and that means that most of your coffee will be both under-extracted and over-extracted!
Or so it has been explained to me.
Excuse me for re-animating a long-dead convo, but I wanted to make sure that PC at least had something to go on. It ain't 'science' as I haven't proved it, but it makes perfect sense to me.*

*with as many grains of salt as you need.

machines just make water hot and push it through the puck".

Temperature is kinda important.

innermusic wrote:Temperature is kinda important.

Kinda.
Grinders are really important.

In order of importance, I'd say that coffee quality, coffee grind, water quality, water temperature, pressure, and then time are the actors that play large parts in espresso, and coffee in general.
Heather Perry was once quoted as saying something akin to she'd rather work with something on par with a Silvia and a great grinder than something on par with a GB-5 and a crappy grinder. Dan and co at CCC compared a xBC tuned LM machine to the MyPressi, and got results so close as to almost be indistinguishable to an average coffee fanatic.
While I spend a bit of time and money making sure that the 'hot' in "Making water hot" is adequate, I find that the grinder in the equation is still going to make a larger difference than a degree or two.
Could be that those with sensitive palates could tolerate a cheaper grinder as long as the water temp is correct, but I dunno about that.

Agree with all of the above. But not with your prior post that said the espresso machine just pushes hot water thru the puck. If that were true, no machine beyond the most basic would be necessary to produce great shots. But we know that temperature is very difficult to control and stabilize, and harder still to adjust.

innermusic wrote: But not with your prior post that said the espresso machine just pushes hot water thru the puck.

Two things: What I actually wrote was, "Espresso machines just make water hot and push it through the puck". but that's really neither here nor there.
There is some discussion from some particularly reputable people about a tiny machine that requires you to heat it up, as well as the water, and all it does is push hot water through a puck. Yet, they score the resulting espressi near equal to those coming from a machine costing tens of thousands of dollars.
Both of those machine would produce crap espresso from a whirly-blade. Or a Kitchen-aide.
I'm not saying that temp isn't important. I'm saying that saving money on a machine that has a temperature dance of one sort or another is something that you can overcome. Saving money on a grinder that can grind for espresso is terminal. There is nothing you can do for a bad grind. Except, perhaps, French press it and hope for the best.
Even in the 'Buying Advice' where some cat asks why he should spend the money to upgrade his next purchase to a GS-3 instead of the Izzo Alex dual boiler, the response from the old dogs here is generally that the GS has more temp control and repeatability, but his money is still better spent upgrading his grinder.
It ain't just me, brother. While the general consensus agrees with you that temp is important, they generally agree with the statement that grinders are far more important than temp.

All that explanation when one link would have sufficed!

shadowfax wrote:All that explanation when one link would have sufficed!

Nicholas, you miss the point. As does innermusic. Shots on par with the machine on par with what any WORLD CHAMPION barista might use to compete *are* being pulled with a buck-fitty worth of gadgetry, and great hand-grinder, and a kettle.
Something to make water hot, and push it through the puck, and a great grinder. All else is simply convenience.
Not a bit of exaggeration of hyperbole in the mix.
Dan, you wanna back me up on this? You were there.