I read a few months ago that Macap now has a full range of digital/on-demand doserless versions of their regular grinders. The model that is particularly interesting is the M7D (pdf link), which is the equivalent of the M7K, a 68mm, 400rpm conical, with 0.01s timing resolution. The European price is around 1400 Euros. There is a thread on kaffee-netz from January that mentions it, but almost six months later there's basically nothing on coffee forums.



It's great to have another grinder of this type available, but I'm suspicious that it's another one of those "slap a chute on the front and add a timer" conversions like the K10 doserless. All the Macap "digital" grinders use a design that looks like the original M4D, which one HB member wishes he never bought, and Chris' Coffee actually stopped carrying because the grinds clumped so much. The poster (ira) recently reported a significant improvement with a modification that brings it in line with the current models.

I wonder if any improvement has been made to the internal grind path, like the Nino. Again, my suspicion is that it's just a regular conical grinder (huge grind chamber and exit path) with a chute bolted on the front, but I'd be pleasantly surprised to discover otherwise.

I'm actually posting this because I just contacted a Mahlkonig K30 distributor for a quote, and he mentioned that all the new Macap digital grinders will be coming in next week. I'm in the market for a high-end timed grinder, and the K30 was looking like the right choice, but I wonder if I should hold off now.

And the mystery of why people would even consider paying more for a grinder without a doser continues. What on earth do you imagine you'll be getting, even if the thing actually worked as advertised?

If you are klutzy enough to grind about 2 grams too much with the doser grinder, and you make five shots a day, and you are spot on waste free with the doserless, not needing to do any sacrifiical grinding ever. Then you would save about 3650 grams, or 8.1 pounds of wasted coffee per year more with the doser than with the precise timer. That will set you back about $120 per year. Enough to pay for "doserless" mod on this grinder in about 5 years, or to get an darkroom timer in about 1.5.

It doesn't add up.

another_jim wrote:And the mystery of why people would even consider paying more for a grinder without a doser continues. What on earth do you imagine you'll be getting, even if the thing actually worked as advertised?

Consistency, ease of use, reduction in waste? I am no great lover of dosers. Not having to thwack like crazy every time I pull a shot is pretty nice. I can bang out a bunch of drinks for friends and family much faster with my Vario than with my K10, even though it grinds slower. Don't you own both a Vario and Versalab M3? Do you wish they had dosers?

There is also the consideration that models with electronic timing are universally doserless. It is possible to run a dosered grinder with an enlarging timer, but it isn't particularly pretty, and the large conical grinders usually significantly exceed the maximum rated motor load. Then you get into separate relays and switches, and most people can't be bothered.

another_jim wrote:If you are klutzy enough to grind about j2 grams too much with the doser grinder, and you make five shots a day, and you are spot on waste free with the doserless, not needing to do any sacrifiical grinding ever. Then you would save about 3650 grams, or 8.1 pounds of wasted coffee per year more with the doser than with the precise timer. That will set you back about $120 per year. Enough to pay for "doserless" mod on this grinder in about 5 years, or to get an darkroom timer in about 1.5.

I regularly waste far more than 2 grams from over-grinding with my K10. Also, an innovative design like the Elektra Nino retains far less coffee, requiring much smaller purges every shot session. I agree there isn't much of a difference between a doser and doserless version of the same grinder if they just slap a chute on the front and call it a day. In some cases the doserless version actually retains MORE, like with the Robur E.

I would imagine the M7D is no different from the M7K internally, so it is probably not particularly interesting aside from the fact that it's less ugly than the K10 doserless. The price seems to be similar.

I think the reason lots of people see to have moved to the Vario from the Super Jolly is the neatness, ease of use, lack of waste, and the timer. All things I find appealing. I don't think many people are claiming the coffee tastes better from the Vario (my feeling is that the taste is comparable).

If the M7D added these things to the great grind of a big conical, it could be a big winner. Right now I think in the titan class the doser conicals have proven to have an edge over the doserless for home use, but I'd love to see a grinder that came out to change this especially if it were priced competitively. Failing that what I'd love to buy would be a dosered conical with a built in precise timer and at a reasonable price. Unfortunately even if you ignore the price restriction I don't think there is a big dosered conical with a precise timer.

Obviously you can add in a darkroom timer, but they are not cheap and they add clutter.

I should have some more information to post at the end of the week.

another_jim wrote:And the mystery of why people would even consider paying more for a grinder without a doser continues. What on earth do you imagine you'll be getting, even if the thing actually worked as advertised?

These are two valid points that a lot of people fail to consider: Whether the inflated price can be justified. And whether the doserless grinder will work as promised. Speaking only to the former, I don't think that the increased cost is entirely unreasonable.

I usually pull two or three shots a day. And one of my grinders (Cimbali 6S/A) retains 8 - 9 grams of coffee in the grinding path to the doser. So unless I decide to unplug the grinder, reach into the doser and scoop out the retained grinds mid-shot.. there will be 9 g of stale coffee waiting for me 10 hours later when I go to make the next shot. At two shots a day, that works out to 14.5 lbs of sacrificial coffee a year. Depending on where you get your beans that could approach $300 annually. So I can see a case for spending $500 - $1000 more for a grinder that ostensibly saves most of that expense, is more pleasant to use (not having to scoop out the retained grinds or thwack the doser lever several thousand times a year) and could be viewed as amortizing itself over 2 - 3 years.

Is this a rationalization? Well of course it is. It's really paying for convenience and ease of use, but it doesn't seem completely unreasonable. The big gotcha of course being whether the doserless grinder works as advertised.

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I have two Mahlkonig K30 Varios. If a person has not used one regularly they are not in a position to make a good evaluation. These are work horses and built like tanks. In the year that I have owned them they have never failed to function. I have both of mine preset at exactly the same. The left program button is set of .5 (half second) and the right button preset at 2.1 seconds. The left button is used to clear the chute and the right button for dispensing 9.25 gms of coffee. Pressing it twice is 18.5 gms which is the amount of coffee that I most frequently use. Time can be reprogrammed easily in about 5 seconds. I weigh regularly and it is never off more than .2 of a gram. The noise level is little more than a hum and there is no clacker involved. There is seldom/never any grinds spread beyond the portafilter which means that there is little or no waste and there is nothing to clean up. Are they perfect? No, but if you weigh all the benefits they receive extremely high marks in my opinion. There are only two disadvantages that I can find. First, they are espresso grinders and there is not enough variation in the grind setting to grind coarse enough to use for drip or pour over. Not a big deal for me because I seldom drink anything except espresso based drinks. The grind has been criticized by some for being "clumpy." This is more of an issue during break in period than after about 6 weeks. The humidity affects the grind at times and it may collect in small balls but a light touch of a tamper they fall apart. The hopper is for a commercial setting and it is huge so the small modified hoppers that I use does not lock in place. Not a big deal because both fit under a standard kitchen cabinet.

I don't know where the "inflated" price comment comes from. They may be listed at $2200 to $2400 but the street price is $1500 to $1600 which makes the grinder extremely competitive.

Now to the Macaps. It is my understanding that the new Macaps incorporate a new motor. What this means I don't know and in fact I don't even know if the brochure in the pdf file reflects current changes in the grinders. I am going to test the conical Macaps when they are in stock and see if it makes sense to sell one of my K30's and get one. If I do I seriously doubt that I will get one with a clacker.

another_jim wrote:And the mystery of why people would even consider paying more for a grinder without a doser continues.

Jim continues to be the doserless grinch, but it's obvious (to me, anyway) that doserless grinders have significant advantages for home use. I have a dosered Robur and a ghetto-modded doserless Major in my kitchen, and the Major is decidedly more pleasant to use: cleaner, quieter, less effort, easier access to chute. (I would pull the Robur doser in a heartbeat if my home mod wasn't so butt-ugly. ) Mahlkonig's new doserless grinders (the Vario in particular) are game changers for the home barista, and I predict the doserless trend will continue.

In a rational world, a doserless grinder would sell for less than the equivalent dosered model, because a doser adds to the production cost. A doserless model with electronic dosing might (initially) cost more than a dosered model, but that would depend on the price of the electronics. Commercial electronic dosing grinders (such as the Robur-E) are still price inflated due to development cost and novelty premium.

Apologies for the thread drift.

John? +1 on all three points.