Here's a question that I have been wondering about lately...

Currently, I have been grinding my beans, a few grams at a time, using my trusty Kyocera CM-45CF grinder. It does a great job, especially since modifying it and adding twice as many adjustment settings. From what I can see, the consistency of the grinds is very uniform. In fact, I recently compared it to a professional grinder at my friend's cafe and I can't see any appreciable difference in the quality of grinds from the $800+ grinder.

So my question is this: aside from a lot of fancy electronic programming and larger burrs, etc. is there really any benefit to spending the extra money? If so, what are you really gaining? It seems like it's mainly about turning burrs and holding the setting constant - so what's the difference if I'm turning the burrs by hand or a motor is doing it?

Does anyone have any first hand experience with using the Kyocera and then upgrading to something like the Vario or M4, etc? If so, was there any major improvement or was it only a slight improvement or none at all?

I'm not opposed to investing in a grinder. However, if something like the Kyocera gets me 90% of the way there, it's difficult to justify spending $600 to $1000 for the last 10%, especially when speed isn't really a major concern for me.

Any comments?

Ray

I would like to chime in by simply saying that I am really interested in what those who are more experienced have to say regarding this subject. After using a Skerton for about a year and recently getting really good deals on a Gaggia MDF and a stepless M4 on Craigslist, I cannot find any huge benefit to these "better" motor-driven grinders compared to the hand grinder. Without a stepless mod, I can see how the Skerton/CM-45CF's adjustability is an issue but with a stepless mod, single dosing, and only making 1 or 2 doubles at a time, these hand grinders produce excellent grind quality and tune-ability with minimal effort for 1/10th the cost for an entry level motor-driven grinder like the M4 or Vario.

I just double checked the grinds from the Kyocera (using a 10 power magnifying visor). They all appear very consistent as far as the size goes. I was going to measure them using a micrometer, but they are so consistent that I didn't bother. There is some slight dust from grinding the beans, but not too much. Also, I'm not sure that's a bad thing, although I suspect it would affect mouth feel.

I've been giving some thought to making my own adjustment knob for the Kyocera - either something which allows finer grain adjustment or perhaps something which will replace the spring setup entirely.

Ray

Jimmmy72 wrote:and only making 1 or 2 doubles at a time, these hand grinders produce excellent grind quality and tune-ability with minimal effort for 1/10th the cost for an entry level motor-driven grinder like the M4 or Vario.

That's been my experience too. I have a Hario slim mill that I have dialed in for my Mypressi Twist V2, and a Kyocera CM-45 CF that I have dialed in for my La Pavoni Europiccola Millenium. This, despite having a Baratza Preciso. It's not that I don't like the Preciso, I love it! But, as alluded to above, I too only pull 1 to 2 doubles at a time, and enjoy hand grinding. To me, it's part of the whole "manual" experience. And, more importantly, they produce some great looking, great tasting shots

Carneiro wrote:What modification have you done to it?

I took the little adjustment knob off and cut a bunch of lines into it (using a small, serrated knife). The original bumps that held the setting wore down, so I had to do something to help it hold its setting. I ended up cutting a bunch of grooves (which intersect with the lines on the bottom burr / holder thing). This allows me to make finer adjustments on the grinder, which makes a huge difference when dialing everything in. The final result was having twice as many settings, or rather clicks that are half as far apart as normal.

I've been thinking about switching to a jam nut affair, which will allow stepless adjustment (and which would not be prone to moving at all during grinding). I've also been giving some thought to losing their little clip in plastic holder thing (on the cone burr). I'm not sure if it serve any real purpose (although it does seem to act as like a shock absorber a little). I was thinking about making a fixture that would hold the burrs in place more firmly.

However, my concern is that the design of the Kyocera is along the lines of the AK-47. In other words, that the loose tolerances are part of what makes it work so well in all conditions.

Ray

I'm coming from the other direction having started with a used MDF (clump city) and then into a Compak K6 for the last few years. The K6 is hardly a 'titan' grinder but I've found it very capable alongside various pump and lever machines, and various different blends.

Recently I've been downsizing my equipment and now pull 90% of my shots from a Cremina and the K6 seems like overkill. I was going to order a Vario but thought I'd try the CM-45 first. It should be here any day now so I will report back once I get acquainted with it. I'm interested to hear what others say on this topic as well.

jarviscochrane wrote:Recently I've been downsizing my equipment and now pull 90% of my shots from a Cremina and the K6 seems like overkill. I was going to order a Vario but thought I'd try the CM-45 first. It should be here any day now so I will report back once I get acquainted with it. I'm interested to hear what others say on this topic as well.

I've been thinking about buying the Vario myself. I like that it has ceramic burrs.

On the Kyocera CM-45, when you get it here are some tips:

The sweet spot for grinding is when the burrs just barely rattle back and forth. When I first had my grinder, the method I used to find my setting was to adjust the setting knob as far down as it would go, then back it off X clicks. The problem with this, as I discovered, is that torquing down the setting knob will quickly grind off the little bumps on it (which help keep your settings).

If I had it to do over again, I would just go by the "rattle / not rattle" method. That's how I do it now: put everything together, then adjust the setting knob until the burrs stop shaking back and forth (when you shake the grinder in your hand). As soon as you can no longer rattle the burrs back and forth (i.e. meaning they are touching enough to hold them in place - even if you attempt to rattle them by shaking the grinder back and forth rapidly), then back off 1 click.

Keep in mind, in my case "1-click" is actually half a click if you have not modified the adjustment knob. You can see what I'm talking about in this video here (at about 2:15 in the video):



Click here to skip directly to the 2:15 part

I think you'll be very happy with the Kyocera. I've used mine for about a year and have had very good luck with it. I enjoy the manual grinding aspect of it, but then I usually only pull 2 to 3 shots per day total.

Ray

The sweet spot for grinding is when the burrs just barely rattle back and forth.

What a coincidence, with my Kyocera CM-45 the sweet spot is also when the burrs barely rattle back and forth. I have a Cunill grinder (flat burrs), and lately I prefer using the Kyocera when paired to the Arrarex Caravel.

Own a collection of hand grinders & one electric conical. Grinder of choice on the PVL2 is the Macap. Prefer one of the PeDe for espresso pulled on the Elektra MCal. The worst hand grinder for espresso (KYM) turns out to yield a decent cup using the Hario pour over. I don't think it's possible to say if hand grinder is inferior or superior to a large diameter conical electric. Too many variables between various hand grinders, electric grinders and espresso machines. Tried many more poor for espresso hand grinders than good ones. But at 1/20 to 1/40th of the cost of one of "the big guys" before resale of the duds it's not a huge relative costs.