Narc's observations illustrate the problem with the vintage hand grinders...the big caveat YMMV. From my observations from using a lot of grinders, the copper top DeVe mills are beautiful but often not espresso capable, the Trossers were grenerally best for drip, open top PeDe mill usually not good for espresso but great for press, many Zass hit the target and the best bet for espresso grinding is KyM. So what develops is a morass of confusion since each grinder has its own capability dependent on a variety of factors, some not even immediately evident.
I have had a few Zass Brillant models that I WANTED so bad that they ground espresso but no matter what I could not MAKE them do it. I have had some mills that by every criteria SHOULD grind espresso but did not, so you see, there can be observable trends for espresso grinders but the trends I observed are the opposite of Narc's actual experience meaning that with vintage grinders it is pretty much a crap shoot and some people get lucky while others end up with a nice shelf of decor coffee grinders.

Here are some links to some posts in the large "Hand Grinder Hand Jive - a Pictorial Essay" that show some espresso attempts of mine using these older wooden mills:

An old De Ve 445 - not too bad...


Hand (grinder) Jive - a photo essay

This one is OK - could have been the old Krups though...


Hand (grinder) Jive - a photo essay

A little Zass 498 that could:


Hand (grinder) Jive - a photo essay

Painted mill - looks weak but it could be the beans...


Hand (grinder) Jive - a photo essay

A Dienes that can:


Hand (grinder) Jive - a photo essay

A KYM from 1957 - The Yellow Submarine :


Hand (grinder) Jive - a photo essay

Another KYM - painted white - it will go fine enough to play.




Hand (grinder) Jive - a photo essay

Finally, a shot pulled using my Dienes 550 with rear adjustment knob - Some Dolce in the glass, not Velton's:



Hand (grinder) Jive - a photo essay

FWIW, my Kym, while it does a great drip grind, sucks at espresso.

[quote="orphanespresso"]... but the trends I observed are the opposite of Narc's actual experience meaning that with vintage grinders it is pretty much a crap shoot and some people get lucky while others end up with a nice shelf of decor coffee grinders.[/quote

For me it has been pure chance or as Doug noted, " a crap shoot" on finding a decent hand grinder. The most expensive & nicest looker on the "shelf of decor coffee grinders" is a beautiful all wood KyM. The other KYM I've kept grinds a decent cup of pour over drip and requires the least number of cranks/gm of all the grinders. I've reached the point of not looking at eBay for any more grinders.

Just a shot in the dark. For the PVL 2 group lever machine the Macap consistently out grinds the hand grinder. The quality of the espresso from the PVL more closely matched the old E61/HX pump machine vs. the taste profile of the MCal. Not sure if the type of grinder (conical electric or handgrinder) is better matched to the inherent characteristics of a machine. Just too many variable in pulling a decent shot, but the grinder must influence the character of espresso?

I've own a hario mini mill (apparently somewhat in the ballpark to the kyocera?) have owned a vintage KYM and compared them both to a Faema 64mm flat burr.
The mini mill sucks for shots as it seems that the grind is inconsistent (lots of fines?) and once a shot is out of choke territory it's too thin and bitter. The KYM was somewhat better with less bitterness but my burrs were not cast evenly and had grind inconsistency. The stepless adjustment was perhaps the saving grace here.
The best of the lot in terms of flavour and flow rate is the Faema even though it's a stepped grinder...

I've now had about a week with my new (used) kyocera cm-45 and am very surprised at the high quality of grind this little grinder produces. It is definitely 'fluffier' the the dosered Compak k6 and has a very different taste profile wih the same beans.

With a Cremina, i have found that 3 notches back from zero, 14g dose in a standard double basket will yield 30g of liquid.

Pros:
- very clean, no waste, the lower recepticle fits perfectly in a 49mm basket
- the whole grinder is only 250g so i can put it right on my 300g scale and dose right into the top
- high grind quality
- pairs nicely with the cremina

Cons:
- only practical for one or 2 shots at a time.
- no fine adjustments as the beans age, can just increase the dose slightly so not a big deal
- the handle does not attach securely, ill be figuring out a mod shortly

Overall this is great second grinder and im happy to own it.

aecletec wrote:I've own a hario mini mill (apparently somewhat in the ballpark to the kyocera?) have owned a vintage KYM and compared them both to a Faema 64mm flat burr.
The mini mill sucks for shots as it seems that the grind is inconsistent (lots of fines?) and once a shot is out of choke territory it's too thin and bitter. The KYM was somewhat better with less bitterness but my burrs were not cast evenly and had grind inconsistency. The stepless adjustment was perhaps the saving grace here.
The best of the lot in terms of flavour and flow rate is the Faema even though it's a stepped grinder...

The burrs are cast? I wonder if someone pulled a label switch. The KyM's I have use a burr machined out of hardened tool steel. Here is another old KyM brass Turkish hand mill that gets the job gone for espresso but does so more slowly than my KyM box mills:

narc wrote:Using the MCal, the two grinders that usually can match or exceed the MX in what I'm expecting for in a shot are the ugly duckling the DeVe (I think model 446, the copper top) and an open hopper PeDe. .

These may be more similar than you realize. The DeVe mills were manufactured at a factory on the De Vecht River in the Netherlands that was founded by a son-in-law of Peter Dienes. The factory in Bruekelen (near Utrecht) was founded in 1919 and mostly produced mills under the PeDe brand. At some point in the 30s they introduced the DeVe brand, presumably because the "Made in Holland" aspect had consumer appeal. There is also an Eva brand, which is sometimes used alone or in combination with DeVe.

Some of the PeDe and DeVe models from the Breukelen factory are identical except for the logo. The son-in-law in Holland did file for some 10 hand mill patents, so there are unique aspects to these mills. Nevertheless, they also share a lot in common with the Dienes mills that were manufactured coincidently in Germany.

I need to do more testing with my Kyrocera CM45 hand grinder, but I don't think I could really tell the difference between it and my vario. My vario seems to clump coffee up at fine espresso settings, the hand grinder never clumped. It's just a bit annoying that I have to break up the clumps with a toothpick with an expensive grinder.

I haven't had any clumping issues with my Vario and it's a lot easier to dial in a grind with the Vario than with my Kyocera CM-45 CF, also a lot easier to switch to drip or vac pot settings and quickly grind 50 grams of coffee and then switch back to my espresso settings and grind up 16 grams for the Gaggia, but the Kyocera is small and convenient for travel and it is what I use at work for espresso. I am looking forward to comparing the Kyocera and Vario to the OE Lido.