For the longest time, Jason, you were extolling the virtues of the Cimbali Max Hybrid on various threads some of which you started. So it was surprising you relegated the CMH to the office and introduced a Mahlkonig Vario for home. It's good to be the king! Curious to learn if there is a detectable taste distinction in the cup.
Good luck on your new acquisition.

perstare

Since I started this talk of hopper chopping Let me say a couple of things:
1. The lathe idea is not safe! I've taught woodshop safety for 20 years and I'm currently working on a book on the subject. I can tell you for certain that this will end badly. Cannonfodder please email me if you want to discuss it further.
2. Here are a couple of photos of the method I used. I had to use a piece of black tape to hold the parts together for the pretend cutting shot (since the photos were taken after the fact). Also, I screwed the hopper to the circular pc of wood before making the cut. You can see the holes but I did not show the screws.The 3 pictures may be self explanatory but if they are not, and you are interested in knowing more, and have access to a bandsaw, please email me so I can give all the detailed info you need to do it right. I really don't want anyone to get hurt because of something I brought up.
3. The total height of my K30 is now 18"- post hopper reduction. The new outer diameter is 7and 9/16"s. so if you wanted to go shorter you would need to find a smaller lid or make one. Also I'd say the new hopper will hold about 1 and 1/2 pounds of coffee.
Cheers, Garryv

shadowfax wrote:. . . I was duly impressed with the way [the Mahlkönig] works--everything you praise, really, Jason. But I can't help my intuition that it's a grinder that will be like a BMW. The super-hot, maybe a little superficial, high maintenance girlfriend. Good performance, very clean, but how easily will its electronics go, how easy will it be to fix yourself, and how much will parts cost? Maybe I am totally off and they are super reliable in the long term, and easy to repair, but they sure look intimidating vs. a gigantic hunk of aluminum with a single external switch on it that is every Mazzer made until these new whizz-bang Electronic grinders--and even those look impressively geared towards a messy shop (which my bar is not).

Well, it certainly is more BMW M6 than it is VW Beetle (or BMW Izetta, for that matter)

in terms of appearance, but let's hope it's more dependable -- kinda like those old Mercedes 190D models that have driven 300,000+ miles . . .

shadowfax wrote:Anyway, I look forward to reading more feedback from you. I have to take exception to your clumping comment. Cuvée's K30 was extremely clumped--to the point of annoyance. I noticed serious resistance to the clumps breaking against my finger as I was leveling. Granted, that did not stop the roaster from pulling some out-of-this world espresso on their prototype LM 3-group with the classic paddle-wheel groups...

I don't know . . . I can't think it has anything to do with the difference between a K30 and a Vario. That doesn't make sense to me. (And maybe Cuvée's was a Vario?) Was there a design change? Maybe? Perhaps my grinder is "cleaner"? (It was torn down and "professionally" cleaned and tested by the people at Mahlkönig before I picked it up, but wouldn't a café keep their equipment clean, too?) OK, I can't explain it in terms of equipment or beans . . . but -- trust me -- it's MUCH more humid in Houston than it is in California. Could that be a part of it?

perstare wrote:For the longest time, Jason, you were extolling the virtues of the Cimbali Max Hybrid on various threads some of which you started. So it was surprising you relegated the CMH to the office and introduced a Mahlkonig Vario for home . . . Curious to learn if there is a detectable taste distinction in the cup . . .

Right now I'd have to say that the move from Mazzer Mini to CMH remains the most significant jump in quality to my espresso. But the Mahlkönig Vario is definitely easier, neater, quieter, faster, and . . . better? It's at least the equal. (I want to be careful and not let the joy of a new purchase sway my opinion.) Strangely -- now that I think about it -- I never pulled side-by-side shots when I had the two machines together . . . D'Oh!

My original (and completely convoluted) thinking was that, IF the K30 wasn't as good as the CMH, I could probably resell it on eBay for the same price I paid for it. Then, I was thinking I could probably recoup a significant percentage of the cost of the CMH by selling it . . . it is, after all, not that old. But then, I decided to get rid of the the Nuova Simonelli MCF grinder and move the CMH to my office: it may be overkill, but it's significantly better than the NS -- why keep that? The CMH is still in use five days a week (rather than seven, for the K30), and probably grinds 2/3's the amount of coffee a week as does the K30, so it's not that much of a "demotion."

Cheers,
Jason

zin1953 wrote:I don't know . . . I can't think it has anything to do with the difference between a K30 and a Vario. That doesn't make sense to me. (And maybe Cuvée's was a Vario?) Was there a design change? Maybe? Perhaps my grinder is "cleaner"? (It was torn down and "professionally" cleaned and tested by the people at Mahlkönig before I picked it up, but wouldn't a café keep their equipment clean, too?) OK, I can't explain it in terms of equipment or beans . . . but -- trust me -- it's MUCH more humid in Houston than it is in California. Could that be a part of it?

I'd be surprised if your grinder is particularly cleaner... Cuvée isn't a coffee shop so much as a roaster. They let customers come to their cupping labs for free by appointment (totally awesome!). I think it's fairly general wisdom that different beans and atmospheres produce really different clumping levels. My point would be that it's difficult to say that your grinder clumps less than other grinders after a small selection of coffees--I'd think you'd need to experience your grinder at different times of year, with a lot of different coffees of varying roast degree, to finally make that call. As far as I know, clumping has ALWAYS been a "YMMV" type of issue.

And even when you do have 'serious' clumping, it's not a given that it will produce problems in the cup--uneven extractions that lead to imbalanced espresso. We weren't using bottomless portafilters at Cuvée, so I couldn't tell you how even the extractions were. But I an definitely say that the Ditting/Mahlkönig put out some really impressive results in the cup, clumping and all, in the hands of a professional. So... I am not trying to criticize, just share my observations.

As far as the grinder model that I used. It was the same as yours, except it was labeled as a Ditting: Here is a link to Cuvée's product sheet.

You would have to be very careful with the lathe and it would be best to turn it by hand to cut, but if you have a lathe you probably have a band saw anyway. Chuck it in a wood lathe and spin it at 1800rpm, it would probably blow up, 500rpm would probably do the same. At any rate, I surprised your band saw did not melt the plexy or ball it up unless you have an adjustable and can turn the speed way down. That is a huge saw, looks like a 24" or larger, lot bigger than my little 14" Jet.

Back to the Mahlkonig, I have seen them used before in videos and they looked like speed demon grinders. I have never had the opportunity to use one; the Robur is the biggest bean crusher I have used. The R2-D2 body is kind of neat as well. It will be interesting to see how your experience shakes out over the next few months.

networkcrasher wrote:Anyone feel like measuring their lids? I think I need one about 8" in diameter. How big are the Mazzer or Macap lids?
-M

I measured my Mazzer lid. The inside diameter of the lid (the lid is designed to go around the top of the hopper, rather than sit on top with a groove holding it in) is 6 1/8". I measured the outside diameter of my hopper and it is 6 1/16". This is the shorty hopper, but I'm pretty sure they're the same diameter as the regular Mazzer hoppers.

There's no play or slop with the 1/16" difference because of the way the hopper lid gently curves in, accounting for the slight difference and fitting pretty snugly, but without fear of ever getting stuck.

Hope this helps.

Awesome! Thanks Fred. I might actually get this project off the ground soon. Just have to figure out a good place to cut the current hopper to accommodate one of the manufactured lids.

cannonfodder wrote:Back to the Mahlkonig, I have seen them used before in videos and they looked like speed demon grinders. I have never had the opportunity to use one; the Robur is the biggest bean crusher I have used. The R2-D2 body is kind of neat as well. It will be interesting to see how your experience shakes out over the next few months.

It definitely is FAST. I think the big difference between it and a Robur is the robur has a lot more going on with it... You're turning on the grinder, thwacking, looking to turn it off, and then thwacking some more. It's the turn it off part that's hard... I would always overgrind with it.

The K30 is obviously a lot easier - and TONS quieter. I mean it's shockingly quiet.

shadowfax wrote:I'd be surprised if your grinder is particularly cleaner...

So would I! Whether it's a coffee shop or a roaster . . . eithe way, they're professionals, right? So I can't conceive of it being cleaner -- or more precisely, theirs being dirtier -- than mine. I'm just grasping at straws, Nicholas; I never said they were the RIGHT straws!

shadowfax wrote:I think it's fairly general wisdom that different beans and atmospheres produce really different clumping levels. My point would be that it's difficult to say that your grinder clumps less than other grinders after a small selection of coffees--I'd think you'd need to experience your grinder at different times of year, with a lot of different coffees of varying roast degree, to finally make that call. As far as I know, clumping has ALWAYS been a "YMMV" type of issue.

Yeah, I readily admit I haven't used it through various times of the year and with a variety of beans . . . that's what I was trying to get at with my comment re: Houston's humidity.

I'll take some pictures to show my results . . . .

cannonfodder wrote:You would have to be very careful with the lathe and it would be best to turn it by hand to cut, but if you have a lathe you probably have a band saw anyway. Chuck it in a wood lathe and spin it at 1800rpm, it would probably blow up, 500rpm would probably do the same. At any rate, I surprised your band saw did not melt the plexy or ball it up unless you have an adjustable and can turn the speed way down. That is a huge saw, looks like a 24" or larger, lot bigger than my little 14" Jet.

I agree that hand turning would be safer. I'm not sure you could cut all the way through the plastic that way, but nothing bad would happen... I used a 30"Oliver bandsaw. I know what you mean about the plastic melting. It is a problem with some plastics but the plastic in the K30 hopper cut about as well as could be expected, and I was able to clean up the edge with sand paper wrapped around a wood block(220wetdry).

Now back to the mahlkonig. For what it's worth, I also get very little clumping, but I have only ground about 10 different coffees in the grinder thus far and I've only had it for a relatively short time. I also find it to be almost too fast, really quiet,easy to use, and solidly made. I've only compared it to a Rocky and a Cimbali jr (perhaps not fair based on the price difference) but the k30 leaves those two in the dust in every way.
The difference in the cup is very easy to taste.
garryv

garryv wrote: I've only compared it to a Rocky and a Cimbali jr (perhaps not fair based on the price difference) but the k30 leaves those two in the dust in every way.
The difference in the cup is very easy to taste.
garryv

That's freaking amazing - my grinder progression has been EXACTLY the same! I started with a rocky, picked up a Cimbali Jr, then onto the K30... I still have the Rocky for drip and a backup 'spro grinder, but that's so funny! I couldn't agree with your sentiments more about the difference in the cup.

-M

garryv wrote:I also find it to be almost too fast

Any idea what the motor rpm is?

I had an opportunity to try out the Mahlkonig at this year's Roaster Guild Retreat and it was the quietest espresso grinder I've ever tried. Oddly... even though my grounds were so fine as to be nearly powdery I was still unable to get a 1.125 oz ristretto in 25 to 28 seconds. I could get the pull to yield about 1.75 to 2 oz in 23 to 25 seconds at that setting.

Most of my shots seemed a bit too bitter but please note that this was NOT a valid test. I did get a couple good shots in my final session btu I think it was due to having beans that worked better for me. The espresso annex had a loaner GB5 and different lots of SO and espresso blends from a wide variety of roasters. None of the beans I tried were ones I had prior experience with and I didn't have the luxury of a full afternoon with the grinder - just a few stray minutes here and there.

But I was highly impressed by the compact size, quiet operation and ease of use.

laservet wrote:Any idea what the motor rpm is?

I checked the Mahlkönig website, as well as the websites of 1st-Line and Espresso Parts NW -- no info as to the rpm speed. However, on the Ditting website, they list it as 1640RPM . . .

I walked into a Crumbs franchise in Manhattan, needing a quick sugar fix, and by serendipity found that
they had a Mahlkonig K30 (re-badged w/Astoria on the face) and naturally had to order a latte. You're absolutely correct: it is very quiet and lightning fast! The barista applied what looked like 2 lbs of pressure
while tamping. Notwithstanding it was very good!

perstare

Pardon, I do not mean to offend, and I applaud garyv's clever fixture and method for cutting the hopper. But there is one aspect of the illustration that is a little worrisome and possibly dangerous. The blade's tooth pitch is very coarse which could result in a smashed hopper (or worse). This is typically due to (in simple terms) one tooth taking too big of a bite. My understanding is that when band sawing metals and plastics (mostly) there should always be a minimum of two teeth in contact with the work - this also applies to most other saws. For example, if the work is 1/8" at its thinnest, then the tooth pitch should be a 1/16" or less.

The Vario appears to be of very high quality and a precise piece of machinery - a rare thing today. Enjoy!

Regards
Geoffrey

Let me start by apologizing to all: I'm pretty new to HBC and I hope I am not offending any one by how much space this hopper discussion is taking up. I'm just concerned that having shown pictures of my set up, I should do my best to make sure that no one has a terrible experience trying to duplicate my methods. Unless you want to try to shorten your hopper you can skip the rest of this post,and after this I hope we can get back to talking about the Mahlkonig, which I really love.
GB, No need to worry about offending me. In a nutshell, A higher TPI (tooth per inch) blade would cut more smoothly but in this case would not have made this operation significantly more safe or foolproof. Not to imply that this method is entirely foolproof, but it is fairly safe (for someone of my skill level) and likely to produce the intended result. For my cut I used a 3 TPI blade (common for cutting wood) and the clean up was still pretty minimal. A 16 TPI blade would be hard to find in a wood working blade (and impractical for all but a few special applications), although 16 TPI's are common in metal cutting, which is really a different world, requiring much greater consideration of TPI, blade type, and cutting speed. Also remember that it is not just the TPI and the type of material that needs to be considered: The feed rate, tooth rake (or cutting angle), blade width and tooth set are also important factors in selecting the best blade for any situation. The two tooth rule you mentioned has more to do with selecting the right blade for control, quality of cut and blade longevity, than safety in our specific example. A blade with too fine a pitch (or high TPI) will cut slow, generate excessive heat, lead to faster tooth wear and blade breakage, and require excessive feed pressure. Too few teeth, or lower than optimal TPI , will cause excessive vibration, poor surface quality, and shortened blade life. These and the other factors mentioned above are important considerations when cutting wood and they are really important when cutting metal, but a single cut through the thin plastic of this hopper would not present any real challenge for a sharp band saw blade in good condition, between 3-10 TPI and 1/4" to 1/2" wide, with a standard rake (non hook).
What is most important about this set-up is that the top edge (or large end) of the hopper (which will be discarded after the cut) is screwed to the round piece of wood, and the round piece of wood is screwed down to the larger rectangular board, so that the hopper can not be rotated during the cut by the downward force of the blade. The other problem this set-up solves is that it holds the hopper perpendicular to the blade during cutting, the required orientation in order to use a band saw. Why a band saw? Because the band saw is one of the few tools in a wood shop that can accomplish cutting an object this shape and size into two specific parts. I know not everyone has a band saw at home but it is a relatively common tool (perhaps you know someone who has a band saw?) and making a set-up like this does not require advanced woodworking skills. Still, this is not something one should attempt unless they have a lot of experience on a band saw. For example, the (rectangular board) must to be pressed very firmly against the bandsaw's fence (which is not shown in my earlier pictures) the entire time the cut is being made. Even a seconds loss of concentration could result in the hopper being caught in the blade and pulled down into the blades path, resulting in a ruined hopper or more importantly possible injury! There is after all a lot of blade showing, and an accident is always possible! Also, this set up would not work on a band saw with a shorter fence. The fence should be almost as tall as the rectangular board in the picture to provide an appropriate vertical surface to push against as you slide the whole set-up through the blade. If this does not make sense or you don't know what a fence is, then you should not be considering this method.
After thinking about it, I've thought of a much safer and nearly foolproof way to cut your hopper: This new and improved method requires building a mirror image set-up to the one in the previous photos, but on the small (bottom) end of the hopper. This would require a second rectangular piece of wood (preferably the same size) and a new round piece of wood that fits nicely into the bottom end of the hopper and is attached to the rectangular piece of wood. Instead of screwing through the hopper bottom here, some other method of attachment would be needed since we would not want holes left in the "keeper" half of our beautiful hopper (you'll come up with something). These two "holders" on both ends of the hopper could then be connected to each other by being screwed to pieces of wood, top and bottom. The end result would look like a wood box with no front or back, just sides, top and bottom. Looking inside this "box" you would see the hopper (in the same horizontal position as my earlier pictures) , tightly fitted between the two sides and securely attached to each side wall via the round pieces. When making the cut, you would cut through both the hopper and the box at the same time. This set-up would prevent the possibility of the hopper being pulled down or rotated by the blade, and the "box" itself would help protect the operator from possible harm! The previous set-up I used requires the operator to manually provide this support, as needed, and worked well for me but I am a professional woodworker of 25 years and I designed the previous set-up as a minimally suitable method based on my skill level. In other words, I probably should have thought it out more and made the superior set-up described above, but didn't because I knew I could get away with the previously pictured set-up based on my expertise. For someone with little experience my original, "non-box"method could be a disaster and, more importantly,dangerous! Even with the "box" method, this is not a beginners project and there are risks involved both to your hopper and more importantly, you depending on exactly how you perform the cut! I can not guarantee or be responsible for using either method in any way but, If I have not managed to scare all of you off yet, and you are considering doing this I'd be willing to talk it over with you first. Just shoot me an email.
garryv

If I had a band saw, I'd do it that way. Since I don't, I'm going to have to improvise with a few clamps and my dremel

Nice job Garry!

I got mine today Here are some pics http://gallery.me.com/tribe3#100324&view=mosaic&sel=0

The thing is so fast and silent!