chemdaxs wrote:Hybrid just plumb clumps, pretty irritating. I did a detailed tasting with 3 other folks (blind) with the Vario VS the Max and the Vario was the unanimous winner. I did a comprehensive written review and posted all the scores, but the gist is, I returned the CMH. Looks like i'll have to upgrade to a large conical to see superior results to the Baratza Vario.

I tried to post pics, but they're too big, and they won't allow off site images (weird) - but i'll PM you a link.

David Schomer (Vivace, Seattle) stated that grinds from hybrid grinder gave him best (espresso related) results. I cannot quickly recall whether it was in his book, or on his website. For past couple of months I do live literally on coffee forums, and interestingly enough, I am not reading too many exciting posts that are collaborating with his observation.

kuoyen wrote:...the flavor difference from them are quite distinctive even in a 2:1 milk dilution

If the flavor differences were "quite distinctive," they would be consistently repeatable across a broad spectrum of coffees and espresso machines. The results would be widely known, published and accepted.

The fact that these taste comparisons are endlessly repeated in people's kitchens with different results tells us that all this "testing" is highly subjective and more dependent than most of us would like to believe on the manufacturing tolerances of the machines' makers.

Pick a grinder that fits your wallet, the space on your counter (and below your cabinets), your sense of style, tolerance for noise and has a good reputation for quality grinding and durability. Pursuing the perfect grinder with the ideal "flavor profile" is a waste of your valuable time.

All things equal in blind testing, could ProM compete then in the espresso cup with Nino?

Perhaps this is a naive question, because it is not aso much about difference between two isolated drinks, but consistency in performance over long run. Any opinion on that, Marshall?

Sakae wrote:All things equal in blind testing, could ProM compete then in the espresso cup with Nino?

Perhaps this is a naive question, because it is not aso much about difference between two isolated drinks, but consistency in performance over long run. Any opinion on that, Marshall?

Time to bite the bullet and chose. Other people can't make this decision for you.

Marshall wrote:If the flavor differences were "quite distinctive," they would be consistently repeatable across a broad spectrum of coffees and espresso machines. The results would be widely known, published and accepted...
Pick a grinder that fits your wallet, the space on your counter (and below your cabinets), your sense of style, tolerance for noise and has a good reputation for quality grinding and durability. Pursuing the perfect grinder with the ideal "flavor profile" is a waste of your valuable time.

Thanks again. I agree that the testing is subjective. However, I believe people on this forum would all agree that different grinders produce different flavor and some would also agree conical burrs and flat burrs emphasize different flavors from the same beans. The subjective parts should be one likes or dislikes the different flavors, or more/less difference one can tell. I believe those difference can be distinguished by many people though probably only few people can describe it clearly. (I cannot describe it well...)

It takes no time to know my budget, the space on my counter, my sense of style, noise I can tolerant, and a reputation of one grinder. I don't agree that trying to understand the flavor profile from different grinders is a waste of time. Isn't finding a way/a good machine to help us produce the enjoyable drinking experience with flavors that fit our own taste the reason why people are coming to this forum?? Not like some members here, I do not have the luxury to try any of those good machines and that's why I try to learn as much insight from those who have that luxury as possible.

kuoyen wrote: However, I believe people on this forum would all agree that different grinders produce different flavor and some would also agree conical burrs and flat burrs emphasize different flavors from the same beans.

There is no such agreement here or in the professional world on either claim.

kuoyen wrote:I don't agree that trying to understand the flavor profile from different grinders is a waste of time.

There is no such thing as a "flavor profile" for a particular model or design of grinder. Different grinders will produce different results with different beans and roasts. If you manage to convince yourself that one grinder is ideal for your favorite blend or s.o., what will you do when the next crop comes in?

I've heard baristas discuss at great length which grinders they believe produce the least heat or least clumping (often disagreeing). I've never heard any of them claim different "flavor profiles" for grinders. Your time would be better spent figuring out how much coffee each design wastes in home use than chasing a mythical profile.

Marshall wrote:Your time would be better spent figuring out how much coffee each design wastes in home use than chasing a mythical profile.

Marshall - I'm sorry I didn't get to meet you while you were in Houston (it was a hectic week and weekend)

On the subject of grinders and taste profiles...I will heartily disagree but at the same time I will note that some differences may be more subtle than the average reader may understand.

That said, there is a distinct difference between the flavors emphasized from 64mm flat burrs (like a Mazzer super Jolly) and the 68mm conical burrs (like a Robur or Nino). The statement that "there is no agreement amongst taste testers" is wholly inaccurate as I have seen multiple testings resulting in similar general results

Although I will reiterate that the "taste profiles" people talk about are generally not as pronounced as one might believe simply from reading the reports presented in forums like this one. Blind testing (especially double blind testing) can be very enlightening as far as understaning the nuances.

JonR10 wrote:Marshall - I'm sorry I didn't get to meet you while you were in Houston (it was a hectic week and weekend)

I'm sorry I missed you too, Jon.

JonR10 wrote:That said, there is a distinct difference between the flavors emphasized from 64mm flat burrs (like a Mazzer super Jolly) and the 68mm conical burrs (like a Robur or Nino). The statement that "there is no agreement amongst taste testers" is wholly inaccurate as I have seen multiple testings resulting in similar general results.

If the differences were real and obvious and consistent, I have no doubt that the coffee world would be talking about it. A lot. But it doesn't. And the best roasters would be recommending different grinders for different coffees. But they don't. And the best coffee bars would be using different style grinders for different coffees. And they don't (except maybe smaller for decaf).

If there is a consensus in the coffee world about "flavor profiles" of particular grinders, please point me to it. I'm looking for something like "Ascaso's are malty. Mazzer conicals are chocolatey. Mahlkoenigs are fruity." If it's out there, I've sure missed it.

Marshall wrote:I'm looking for something like "Ascaso's are malty. Mazzer conicals are chocolatey. Mahlkoenigs are fruity." If it's out there, I've sure missed it.

I now better understand your point, and your statement is valid. This does not however invalidate my assertion that there are subtle differences in the flavor emphasis from using different burr geometries.

Marshall and Jon,

Thank you both again for sharing your thoughts. I want to make it clear that I have NO intention to put any mark on any grinder or to find a "perfect" grinder. Maybe my question was too broad and probably somehow misused "flavor profile". I simply want to know the difference of flavor emphasis by each of these grinders if there is any. After reading your comments, I think I should have made my question more specific. Something like - by using the same espresso blend, how is the flavor tasted differently from CMH, K30, ProM, and K10? Again, I simply want to understand more about how they perform on the flavor side from people's experience.

Thanks.

Yen-Chen