RapidCoffee wrote:For most people, getting espresso gear is an iterative process. You don't start out spending $10K on the most expensive kit available. In fact, to your average coffee drinker, $100 seems like outrageous amount to spend on a grinder.

Examples of this abound. I just noticed another grinder newbie grist for the mill:

Subject: Whats a good Burr Grinder for around 100 dollars?

Right now I use a junky 10 dollar blade grinder that I picked up from the flea market, and its time to upgrade.
I dont wanna spend TOO much money on a grinder becuase money is tight at the moment, so I would like a grinder for some where around 100 bucks.
...
Yeah, I want a grinder for espresso. ...if it helps, the machine Im using is a La Pavoni Lever Style

Im thinking about getting this one

"This one" is a $70 Krups. Likelihood of decent espresso with a Pavoni lever? Nil. But at least he's moving in the right direction. Maybe the next iteration will land him in "real" grinder territory.

ChadTheNomad wrote:I think the point is that espresso is one of those few things that puts so much responsibility into the hands of the consumer.

Aside from the storage conditions of the wine after the consumer has purchased the bottle (which may last as little 30 minutes or as long as 30+ years!), you're absolutely right of course . . . No analogy is perfect, but the role of the consumer in making espresso is akin to the winemaker -- especially if the consumer is roasting his or her own beans! Then, it really can be akin to purchasing the grapes from the grower and making one's own wine. But since most of us still purchase beans which are commercially roasted, it's almost more like making sparkling wines: the roaster took care of "making the wine," if you will; we consumers decide when to disgorge the bottle and what dosage to add . . .

(Yes, imperfect analogy at best!)

Conical burr hand grinders can be had for $50 or so, sometimes less, but you'll need to do your homework to be sure to get a good one. There are lots of threads on HB to help with this.

With a good hand grinder and a La Pavoni (and good fresh beans) you can make espresso as good or better than you can get at most cafes.

PC

peacecup wrote:Conical burr hand grinders can be had for $50 or so, sometimes less, but you'll need to do your homework to be sure to get a good one. There are lots of threads on HB to help with this.

With a good hand grinder and a La Pavoni (and good fresh beans) you can make espresso as good or better than you can get at most cafes.

PC

Hi PC,

I do love my Pavoni and my grinder - I didn't start this thread with the intention of buying any new gear. I was more curious about how other people valued their grinders relative to their machines. That said I have read a lot about the hand grinders and have started recommending them widely especially to people who are looking for a good espresso grinder on a tight budget and I am confident your posts were the first place I ever heard about their virtues so thanks!

Hugh

da gino wrote:I have a hypothetical question, having at least once a day on HB read something along the lines of "it is all about the grinder." I wonder how many people believe that to the extent that they would back it up with their budget. When I look at people's equipment profiles, it seems rare to find someone who spent more on their grinder than their machine.

You've totally taken this advice out of context. As has already been pointed out, this advice is offered to espresso newbies who typically budget $200 for their espresso machine and haven't even thought about the grinder at all.

By the time enthusiasts invest in a $1,500+ espresso machines they generally have a better idea of what a good grinder is (and $$ isn't the way to assess quality of an espresso machine vs grinder). However, if anyone pipes up that they have a GS3 and a whirly blade grinder for it I'd love to hear about it...

Endo wrote:Sadly, many people buy espresso machines to SHOW their good taste rather than to PRODUCE good taste.

Note how many posts there are on machines and how few on beans.

There is a lot about machines because they are much harder to master than the grinder. The machine really does make a difference. I was struggling to pull something drinkable from an Ascaso Dream (not that the machine can't do it) and when I had the opportunity to upgrade my machine I was surprised at how much easier it was to to get espresso with a better machine! I know that from where I am to a great espresso it is a very long way but at least now I can drink the stuff

tribe3 wrote:There is a lot about machines because they are much harder to master than the grinder.

Really? Really?

Seems like it depends on your grinder and your espresso machine.

I'd say there's a general opinion, especially among newbies, that the machine is more difficult to master than the grinder. That seems like [part of] the problem that the mantra it's the grinder, stupid was designed to combat.

[edit]FWIW I wrote the above before Pablo edited his post to add in details[/edit]

The machine really does make a difference. I was struggling to pull something drinkable from an Ascaso Dream (not that the machine can't do it) and when I had the opportunity to upgrade my machine I was surprised at how much easier it was to to get espresso with a better machine! I know that from where I am to a great espresso it is a very long way but at least now I can drink the stuff

Are you still using your Rocky? It seems like you're writing from the perspective of someone who's upgraded your machine, but not your grinder. Still, given that, I think you've got a pretty decent grinder; You should notice an improvement, but it will not likely match going from a tiny single boiler machine to a commercial HX machine.

I have a grinder that it's not even considered suitable in these forums and with this same grinder I got dramatic differences when I changed machine.

Edit: Yes, I still have the Rocky and I plan to keep it for a while since the purchase of the Faema was an unexpected opportunity. When/if I upgrade I will most probably go with a Mazzer SJ and not more. The Rocky might not be perfect but it is not the one thing that is keeping me from making good espresso; I think I still have much room for improvement before the grinder starts falling short.

Also, I have to wait for a while before another brown box enters my home because of domestic reasons

da gino wrote:I do love my Pavoni and my grinder - I didn't start this thread with the intention of buying any new gear. I was more curious about how other people valued their grinders relative to their machines.

Grinders make espresso. Espresso machines just make water hot and push it through the grinder's work. Oh, and make steam.

Psyd wrote:Grinders make espresso. Espresso machines just make water hot and push it through the grinder's work....

I wouldn't go quite that far. If it were purely true then a Silvia would be nearly equal to a Vibiemme Domobar Super when they were both paired to a Mazzer Robur, and that is not the case. Temperature control, temperature curve, water distribution, rate of the beginning of the water delivery, pre-infusion, etc., all have a large part in the quality of the espresso.

I usually say, "A high quality grinder will get the most out of any given espresso machine, but the best espresso machine will create a poor beverage when paired with a cheap grinder."