Hello,

I just took delivery this week of my new Andreja machine and Vario grinder. Milk steaming's going great and much better results already than the Gaggia Classic I've upgraded from, but I just can't get the grind/dose settings right!

Whatever I try I get early blonding. My morning 8 oz cappuccino with single espresso looks fabulous but tastes really dull and weak. The coffee is a week old and from a supplier who I understand roasts every day so it shouldn't be the coffee, but I am starting to wonder.

Can Vario owners please let me know typical dose weight and grind settings I can try as a starting point for a single espresso?

Thank you!

Hi Matt,

This might be a red herring, but do you typically pull single shots? I don't know about your machine specifically, but all of the machines I've owned pull better shots with double baskets / doses, which would would start at 14g and potentially go all the way up to 18g if you're overdosing, as I like to do. If you're not interested in drinking quite so much caffeine you can always discard part of the shot.

Otherwise have you tried tightening the grind to restrict flow and slow things down? Also playing with distribution? (Search for WDT) Shouldn't be necessary with the Vario but if the fines aren't distributed evenly in the basket, you could potentially get early blonding.

Asking about dose as it relates to your grinder is probably not the right question -- it's more likely down to your basket size. And grind settings on the Vario aren't usually transferrable between machines, as they can be (and usually are) calibrated differently.

Experimentation is probably the best way to find a dose / grind setting that works best for you. Even if you don't typically drink straight espresso, sampling the straight shots is going to give you a much better idea of where you're and and where you want to be, finding that balance between underextraction (sour) and overextraction (bitter). You'll waste a lot of coffee, and probably get overcaffeinated in the process, but it's all part of the process. Good luck.

Frank

Well, I'm in a similar situation to you. I have a new Vario, and a new espresso machine (Rancilio Silvia). (However, I don't have years of experience with another machine).

I started by doing some basic research, and determined that a double shot of espresso should use approximately 14 g of ground coffee to make 2 fl oz of coffee with an extraction time of 25 seconds. (If you make a single shot, you need 7 g of ground coffee to make 1 fl oz, but the extraction time should be the same.)

I make a double shot, so the first thing to do is to grind 14 g coffee. I used 2-Q as the starting setting, as I found that that was a recommendation for the starting espresso setting.

I used a scale that had a resolution of 0.01 g in order to eliminate rounding errors. (Using my kitchen scale which has a 1 g resolution could result in a variation of 7%.)

Having ground the coffee, I weighed it, and made a note of the grind time, setting, and weight, so I could adjust the grind time to get an accurate estimation of the time to grind 14 g at that setting. Unfortunately, I recorded this data on a scrap of paper which I threw away after I had finished with it. I now record the settings, time, and weight on the computer, so I can use the data later.

I then brewed the double shot. (My Silvia has a Pid which brews for a preset time of 25 seconds, so I don't need to time the extraction.) After brewing, I measured the weight of extracted coffee. For 2 fl oz, it should be 58 g, but it actually was over 100 g (I cannot remember the exact figure).

I tasted the coffee, and as expected, it did not taste good. I needed a finer grind to extract 58 g.

I adjusted the grind 8 micro points finer (to 2-I), and tried again. (With the finer grind, it takes longer to grind the required weight, but I did not record this permanently). I then brewed another double shot, and weighed the coffee again. It was closer to 58 g, but still over. (Again, I did not permanently record the weight, which would have given me an indication as to the effect of a 8 micro step adjustment.

I tightened the grinder another 4 micro steps (to 2-E), and tried again. This time the brewed coffee weighed exactly 59 g, and tasted really good.

If it hadn't tasted good at approximately the correct weight, I would have reprogrammed the extraction time in the Pid to correct this, but this was not necessary.

Unfortunately, all this experimenting combined with numerous earlier experiments which I didn't take notes of, caused me to run out of home roasted coffee, so I bought a can of Illy to tide me through.

Next morning, I tried the Illy (which I had just opened) and had to recalibrate the grinder about 3 times to get an acceptable result, and the next day (today), the Illy was affected by the humidity, and the grinder had to be calibrated yet again.

Now I'm taking detailed notes, I'm hoping that tomorrow, I will either not have to calibrate, or will have some data that helps me with the calibration.

Alan

A couple of observations, ajf:

if you are pulling 60 g from 14 g of beans, you are well in the lungo range. more power to you if you like the taste, as it's ultimately about your personal enjoyment. Your shot, though, may be different than what you typically get when you order an espresso from a third wave shop (cf. brewing ratios here).

The Vario may be predictably linear around its optimal set point (i.e., the macro+micro setting where you get an optimal extraction that you define--grams in and grams out), with one tick in the micro setting making a difference of approximately 2-3 seconds in the extraction. However, if you are far away from the set point (i will posit that eight micro ticks means you are pretty far off the optimum setting), the response is grossly nonlinear. i say this only to emphasize that eight micro steps may have very different effects when comparing different blends/roasts or even the same blend at different days post-roast.

ultimately, the variability in the vario convinced me to upgrade to a compak k10. perhaps the itch will strike you someday...

sqroot3

As I explained, I have very little experience with espresso.
I don't think that there is any argument, that a single shot of espresso requires 7 grams of ground coffee.
Simple arithmetic shows that a double shot requires 2 * 7 = 14 grams, yet your link shows 16 grams for a double shot.

A double shot of coffee should have a volume of 2 fl oz. I made the mistake of ignoring the crema and assuming that 1 fl oz weighs 29 grams. As your link states, the way to measure the outcome is by weight, not volume. I did this, but failed to account for the crema.

I think that the point about the 8 micro points setting being not linear could well be true, but it was a power of 2. If it was too much, I could adjust by 4 micro points, then 2, and finally 1. Any adjustment that was not a power of 2 could result in more steps to achieve the desired result.

I have compared my results with those obtained from local coffee shops. They are much more predictable.
The results I achieved from the coffee shops were:

• 1. The first shop I tried, did not grind fresh coffee. It was already ground before I entered the shop, and in my opinion, it was undrinkable.
  2. Also the milk was off. (I ordered a cappuccino), and the milk was distinctly sour.
  3. The next shop I tried used fresh milk, but forgot to add any coffee. Alright, they did add coffee, but there was very little coffee flavor to the drink.
  4. The last two shops produced a drinkable cappuccino, but they were very bland.

They are the only coffee shops I have found (except Starbucks) within a 40 mile radius of my home.

Alan

Alen,in today's world of so called third wave espresso,you'll find if you read through the hundreds of threads on this form, that find most members and shops dose coffee much higher. Myself, I usually dose 15 to 16.5 into a double basket depending on the coffee I'm using. I usually pull my doubles at 50 to 65 percent brew ratios which yield under 1oz. That's just my taste in espresso.
I don't pull many singles but when I do I usually dose about 10 to 11 grams of coffee to get anything I like.

I don't think this has anything to do with the vario. You should read the FAQs in the tips section.

I re calibrated my grinder so my settings will be different than yours.

If you have a light roast, you need a fine grind and higher temp or it will be bland. For me this can be as low as 12 gram double. Once it ages a bit I can be up to an 18 gram double.

Like I said the tips forum FAQs are great. Especially the adjusting by taste one

XCman wrote:Alen,in today's world of so called third wave espresso,you'll find if you read through the hundreds of threads on this form, that find most members and shops dose coffee much higher. Myself, I usually dose 15 to 16.5 into a double basket depending on the coffee I'm using. I usually pull my doubles at 50 to 65 percent brew ratios which yield under 1oz. That's just my taste in espresso.
I don't pull many singles but when I do I usually dose about 10 to 11 grams of coffee to get anything I like.

Yep a third wave "single" can often be +\- 20g. I don't know of any decent cafe serving 7g single espresso.

Serves me right for believing what Kevin Sinnott wrote in The Art and Craft of Coffee. (That's where I got the weight of coffee as 7g per shot, and the volume of a single shot as 1 oz). I won't make that mistake again, but those measurements do yield a good cup of coffee to my palate, and my coffee is stronger than than obtained from the local coffee shops.

Alan

Thanks for the replies guys. My shots are getting a little better but still some way to go I think. I've wasted a lot of coffee so far but I think this should work ok next time:

1. Weigh 16g beans
2. Add to empty grinder, grind
3. Adjust grind until I get approx 2oz in approx 25 - 30 sec extraction
4. If I get early blonding grind finer
5. If I still get early blonding increase dose
6. Fine tune by tasting

Is this procedure ok? With my old (not nearly as good) grinder I just used to set to the finest setting and then adjust the dose size and tamp pressure, all these grind settings mean extra variables to get confused about!

Thanks!