peacecup wrote:And here's a hand-ground Cafe D'Arte in a brown NP tulip:

PC, your pix are wonderful. Good shots, photo and espresso.

Well done!

peacecup wrote:To stimulate the senses, here's a hand-ground, ~14 g, 1-oz ristretto, from karlschneider's private reserve Brazil Cachoeira de Grama Yellow Bourbon, 6-d post roast. I'm still dialing in the PeDe on this one, but it was silky-smooth, and still lingering as I post this. Karl is currently having a go with the conical-burr DeVe seen earlier in this thread, and seems to be finding it to his liking. Hopefully he'll be posting his impressions here soon.

PC[/img]

Thanks to the gracious generosity of PC it is indeed true that I am now using the DeVe conical burr grinder from Holland pictured in his collection earlier in this thread. It is not adjusting to its latest home in the midst of west central Ohio corn and soy bean fields.

I have pulled four evenings of shots so far with the DeVe and I confess that I am not just pleased but ndeed quite excited about what I am tasting. I had two roasts to work with. A Yemen Sana'ani is from green beans I now suspect are a tad long in the tooth. They are getting on to a year old. What I tasted was the earth part of the Yemen palate. And this was quite distinct. Missing was the chocolate frame to the taste. The other roast was a Brazil Poco Fundo. This is my second year trying this type and again I suspect it is best in a blend. It is rich without clarity of flavor then a bit too acidic. Last night at 6 days, however, in the Cremina the shot was really good. A bit more balance. I had the basic sense in both cases that the flavors that were there were as clean and clear as they could be given the roast itself.

I had this point underscored this morning. I make Cafe Hermitaggio's [aka Americano] in the morning. This week's roast was a Kona Kowali Farm Typica (not the XF). and it was perfect. All the Kona balance and completeness were fully there. And here it seems abundantly clear that the flavors are so clear. I even used not only my usual Elektra but also the Cremina just to test the clarity. I got a Tebaldi Kona from the Elektra and a Gigli Kona from the Cremina.

Although I do not see well enough to be sure of this I think the grounds in the DeVe are distinctly fluffy. These first tastes of conical grinds seems to parallel Jim S's tastes on the Titan conicals.

More soon thanks to PC.

KS

Well, I skipped the photo of this one, but not because it wasn't beautiful - I just couldn't wait to drink it.

The apres dinner was a KS Yemen, 7 days post roast. Suspected of being long in the tooth. It was actually very good. True, little chocolate as I've had before from Yemen, but so full of body. KS call it earthy, so I'll go with that. Before it had finished pouring I got a blast of the aroma rising from the NP Tulip. It the word is eathy, this was like a landslide.

In fact, pour isn't exactly the word. Yemen almost begs an entire new descriptor for espresso - something in the way it pours - it has a much thicker consistancy, mousse, that's it. It Mousees. And that's what it tasted like.

BTW, the wood-top KYM in the earlier photo is at the top of its game today. The Yemen, and the two prior blends were right on, although it did choke the Ponte Vecchio on the AM KS Brazil.

That's all for now,

PC

prof_stack wrote:PC, your pix are wonderful. Good shots, photo and espresso.

Well done!

Nice New Avatar!

My hand grinder search was driven more by size constraints than anything else, as I was after a grinder to take with me on extended motorcycle tours.

As the Presso machine was bulky to start with I had to compensate with a small grinder.

I eventually decided on a Turkish hand grinder, the HON, partly for its size, but also as if it could do Turkish grind, it should be able to do espresso


A conical burr set


I suppose that this could be called a stepless control


The complete grinder


Presso and grinder ready to fill basket


Presso basket with freshly ground coffee


Tamped basket, the PF holder is in the kettle warming up, a usefull trick wit a presso.


Pulled shot, as the Presso is a two handed machine I don't have any shots of the shot being pulled


Finished product


The tools

I have been thinking of getting a hand mill for the same reason. While I have lots of room on the GoldWing, if I am road tripping it for a week space does get tight. I was thinking hand mill and small press pot.

today I was able to do some taste study. This morning I pulled Cafe Hermitaggios using the last of the Kona Kowali Typica at 7 days old. First came a shot from my new Fiorenzato Doge 63 (flat burr). Then followed two shots ground on the DeVe. My results surprised me. There was no question that the ginnder made a difference. On these shots I clearly preferred the Doge. All the flavors were more clear. The DeVe produced more rounded flavors, heavier taste and less definition of component parts of the taste. I asked why the difference and came to the hypothesis that it could be extracton levels. The DeVe shots could be just slightly over-dosed. In all cases I was using the "same" volume of beans and the flow rate was close enough for direct comparison. All shots were on the Elektra.

I just had four espressi using the last of 7-day old Brazil Poco Fundo. The first 2 were ground in the Doge. They were the best of the week. The previous harsh finish had mellowed and the shot was very good but still not great. Still was dull in essence. The third shot was using the DeVe. It was a repeat of the morning in that it was worse than the Doge. Again it seemed that with the same amount of beans, the same pull time and the same machine (now the Cremina) the taste was even more over-dosed. It had bitterness in the finish. The last shot was also a DeVe grind. I intentionally cut back the amount of beans. Voila -- a much more balanced flavor.

I cannot help but think that the lesson here is that all of these grinders are fully capable of making great shots. The essential thing is to learn all the idiosyncracies of whatever you have. It my be that some grinders emphasize individuality and some produce greater homogeneity of flavor. Each of us has to decide what we prefer to deal with.

KS

All things must come to it's own terms--- Karl- you , once again are the voice of reason. We can debate many machines, and grinders. Doses, tampers, tamp process, distribution method( or not) machine , basket size, humidity and bean type and freshness and water quality. It is the becoming master of your assigned ship that makes "it so" . Lead with your taste buds.

Your descriptions always leave me a bit feeling that I must have burned out many taste buds in the 60"s- or that my command of adjectives are arthritic at best. Thanks for your flowery assistance. I even am a member of a wine cellar club and have a celler with wine - and have grown, pruned and produced wine-- I cannot, for the life of me, eeeK out what you re able to...

A humble observer


greg

Hi Greg,

I am a teacher at heart and so helping others learn gives me great pleasure. I also am constantly learning new, surprising things. You may recall my initial reaction to the Titan Grinder thread was disinterest. The grinders seemed far too big to even consider. But as one can see below I now have a mid-sized Fiorenzato. It is in fact bigger than both my espresso machines and outweighs them together. It is within a whisker of being just too big. But I like using it and like learning how I changed on this theme.



The Cafe Hermitaggio pictured there was a Sumatra Blue Batak "Tarbarita" Peaberry. The first cup this morning was ground in the Doge. It was a slight bit bitter in the end. The first one ground in the DeVe was also out of the window I aim for. A bit thick in taste and still better in the end. A reduced dose on the DeVe brought the wildness of Sumatra I love in a Cafe Hermitaggio into perfect fpcus. Since I started making Cafe Cremas (when I had an HX) and Cafe Hermitaggios I have stopped using my french press pot. I find the flavor extracted particularly by the Elektra to be unsurpassed.

In using the DeVe I have started dosing into the basket as it sits in the drawer. This works for me really well.




I would also mention another plus for the DeVe. I alternate two kinds of coffee each morning -- decaf for my wife and high test for me. It takes a lot less time to clean the hand grinder and be ready for the next pull.

KS

I think KS probably hit the nail on the head:

cannot help but think that the lesson here is that all of these grinders are fully capable of making great shots.

This is what I got from the Titan thread, in fact. Each type of grinder probably brings out certain characteristics in the beans, so depending on beans, dose, etc. each can make good espresso, provided it is capable of a fine enough grind, and somewhat even particle size.

Many hand grinders clearly are not capable of grinding fine enough for espresso. Most of the older German/Dutch grinders do seem to be, provided they are not worn out. The good news is that if you find a good one, they appear to last a prett darn long time.

The KYM I've been using this weekend has really surprised me. I had considered it to be a little off-quality, but in fact it has made great espresso with three different bean types all weekend. Its the grinder featured in my long-forgotten video "A Little Blonde" - I still use the same dose techinique (i.e. cut-corner greeting card) shown here, but I take more care in leveling, etc - this was a sylized version!:

http://www.home-barista.com/forum...ng%20lever%20video

PC

I was a bit quiet recently - egoistically kept my eyes on a PeDe which was poorly labelled on ebay>>> Aber jetzt bin ich hier




While at the same time Zasses and Dienes grinders of comparable condition went above 90$ (dont forget the euro is expensive at the moment) this Dienes remained almost undiscovered and I got the bid at 18$. the burrs are forged.

Many thanks, espressme, fullsack, peacecup and many others - it were your posts encouraging me to give it a try. i know there is a chance it might be faulty, but it looks promising... i ll let you know.

just shortly before i tried my luck on that turkish and was the only bidder - 3$

Well, that's a lovely Dienes, I've always liked the laminated wood highlights. They're not cheap anymore, and for good reason. Not only are they very beautiful, but all of the Dienes' I've tired have been good. But, the proof will be, as they say, in the pudding, so we'll look forward to hearing how it works.

PC

A brief note on this week's espressi Brazil Organic Fazenda Jacaranda. First of all it seems to be one of the best Brazil SO's of all. It has enough balance to make it complete by itself.

Three shots tonight. First two were from the Fiorenzato Doge. The second was extremely good once I got the fineness of grind and tamp set. The third was from the DeVe which I lucked out in guessing the grind setting. The pull was in the right time frame. It was also a wonderful cup. But it was so different from the electric flat burr grind. Again the big 63 mm flat burrs seemed to produce more separation of flavors and the conical burrs of the manual gave a more integrated taste. Both seem to have great potential for close inspection of variations. Each should take you to a different place. If you want to get to a single destination coosee either and follow.

KS

ogatasan wrote:I was a bit quiet recently - egoistically kept my eyes on a PeDe which was poorly labelled on ebay>>> Aber jetzt bin ich hier

<image>


While at the same time Zasses and Dienes grinders of comparable condition went above 90$ (dont forget the euro is expensive at the moment) this PeDe remained almost undiscovered and I got the bid at 18$. the burrs are forged.

Many thanks, espressme, fullsack, peacecup and many others - it were your posts encouraging me to give it a try. i know there is a chance it might be faulty, but it looks promising... i ll let you know.

just shortly before i tried my luck on that turkish and was the only bidder - 3$

Congratulations! I just got the exact same Dienes Grinder- I mean spot on! Model 543- mine has ablack knob on the drawer and a natural color knob on the crank but ... truly sisters! It is tiny! I do really like the metal grounds drawer I have disassembed it, cleaning and touching it up with some new clear coat and stain etc. I will post some photos soon. Nicely machines burrs with the Peacecup predicted 6 pointed star on the top burr. Burrs were in lovely condition. This is the first grinder I have had the rear horixontal adjustment mechanism.

Way to go Ogatasan! The brass job looks nice as well! I can't wait to see if it grinds well- still a couple odays away yet

Jack, that Tight-Hand grinder review is coming and I think it should be a group effort. You, Prof Stack, Fullsack, Ogatasan and others if so inclined. Karl is our "color" commentator ;>) Also Jack , or others, be thinking up an agenda to follow and on a predtermined task list / score card so we don;t wander around helter- skelter .... I am fresh out of a scanning electron microscope... so don't ask!

mogogear wrote:Congratulations! I just got the exact same Dienes Grinder

Greg, am looking forward to your experience and results as I wait for the delivery. Did you already use it? There seems to be hardly any information about the history of Dienes. Obviously Peter Dienes (PeDe) had his plant in Remscheid, Germany but also one in Breukelen, Holland where they mainly made porcelain wall grinders. Dienes now is a manufacturer of precision tools with plants in Germany and the US.

mogogear wrote:Jack, that Tight-Hand grinder review is coming and I think it should be a group effort. You, Prof Stack, Fullsack, Ogatasan and others if so inclined. Karl is our "color" commentator ;>)

Honestly, i'd be happy to participate, but lets be realistic - I've been using preground so far, and have no whatsoever experience with beans, local roasters....

Later this year, once i am in London ill try to get in touch with roasters, and I know there is a scene in Amsterdam, but at that time I already planned to move back to Innsbruck - wonder what the proximity to Italy means in this context.

Ok, here is just a taste of the relative size of the New Dienes model 543 is compared to a Lehnartz knee mill ( no model - just clover stamps under ) and a De Ve ( no model- copper top )



a aerial view of the burrs( sorry my Good digital is still AOL)





the rear mounted burr adjustment



Sittin; close by... BYE




And I stand corrected in my comparison of the two 543 Dienes models - Mine is not near as pristine as Oga's looks! My inlays are not near as distinct.

Greg,

That's a nice collection! The DeVe really cleaned up beautifully - have you tried it? The one I sent to KS was capable of a very fine grind.

PC

BTW,

I've never seen the workings of the back-adjusted Dienes - it would be worth posting on that at some future date.

PC

Hello

I have a Tre Spade hand grinder which I too love using, but like you I am frustrated that it doesn't grind quite fine enough for perfect espresso

It does a pretty good job - a thin crema and strong shot, syrupy if there is alot of robusta in the mix. I use a Presso which has an advantage over the electric pump machine as you can slow the pull a bit if it is coming too fast.

The other fear with the Trespade is the wear of the brass bush. It was an expensive device and the more wear the less even the grind over time I fear. Why did they build such a device with such a fantastic quality machined burr and then skimp on the bearings I will never know? I guess most Italians use stovetops which work better with a coarser grind than a machine.

To rectify the situation I have ordered some small ball bearings and a sleeve to modify the top bearing and get rid of the wobble and wear factor.

I haven't got the parts yet. I promise to post a photo essay to share my experiences.

A warm G'day to all hand grinder enthusiasts.

Welcome to you Al- come aboard!