After my foray into the Viennese world of specialty and not so specialty coffee, I am surprised once again - as has been my experience in my personal coffee journey - that old mantras have been repeatedly disproved. As regards grinders in various locations, I am surprised at the approaches that are taken by various shops.

Some of my random observations:
1. all serious filter coffee places now seem to offer the EK43 as their standard grinder
2. all serious espresso places tend to have the new Mythos grinder (or decided to keep their Mahlkoenig K30 for now even though they say that the Mythos is less messy and preferable over the Mahlkoenig)
3. Mazzer flat burr grinders are at the bottom of the list. Usually, they can be found in places that aren't serious about coffee. One third-wave shop is still using Majors, though, and seems to have a great reputation among aficionados.
4. Strong opinions about new flat burr vs. old conical burr design abound. Conicals are seen as inferior by most coffee people.
5. Viennese third wave coffee shops (as do their traditional brethren) serve single shots as standard espresso (usually pulled as doubles and then cut in half by the two-spouted portafilter). Double shots need to be ordered specifically. Usually, shops grind less coffee into the portafilter.
6. Espresso is pulled at much lower temperatures than in North America (88-90 deg. C). Brew ratio is less favorable in my opinion. Much (too much) quantity/liquid in the cup.

(Items 5 and 6 don't specifically apply to grinders but I thought I mentioned them nonetheless)

The EK43 lurks on the counter of every third-wave shop that can afford one. Some places will be willing to prepare you a shot of espresso on it. I tried it a couple of times and gave up as the shots were thin and too juicy for my taste. In terms of filter, I guess the EK43 is hard to beat.
It is generally agreed upon that the old phalanx of Mazzer grinders has been superseded by newer products that are considered better. However, when I looked up from a cup of one of my favorite espressos to spot the grinder, I was greeted by two shiny new Roburs. Another time, when I ordered a pourover form the Karlsbad porcelain brewer, to my dismay the barista used a Mazzer Major to grind the beans. He said he couldn't afford any better currently. Much to my dismay (and against any expectations), I didn't receive the muddy broth I was anticipating but one of the most flavorful and most wonderful pourovers I've had in a long time. It was so good, it has strongly revitalized my interested in traditional pour-over methods. Yet how could that be? It was ground on a grinder that is considered a poor choice for that style of brew. Then I went to shops that had perfect arrays of state-of the art equipment. Expensive hand-built machines and such! Yet their drinks I don't remember. They did not leave an impression, even though they were pulled on an expensive paddle with full pressure-profiling by detail-oriented baristas who were seemingly crafting the "perfect" beverage - an over-engineered cup of coffee without character.

So, what did the whole experience teach me? For one, I am still convinced that the grinder is the most important tool in coffee making. But it also taught me that the quality of the bean and the skill and the vision of the barista are second to none. Shops that had the most interesting specialty coffees from creative and reputable roasters available also served the best coffee. Regardless of their equipment choices.

FWIW, my major (with fresh burrs) produces pourovers nothing short of great.

There's a youtube for this phenomenon, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QA5gJ0hZpCc .

Alan

I hope some people got bargains on used Mazzers
My favourite places still use Roburs after trying others out...

pumpkinscastle wrote:
So, what did the whole experience teach me? For one, I am still convinced that the grinder is the most important tool in coffee making. But it also taught me that the quality of the bean and the skill and the vision of the barista are second to none. Shops that had the most interesting specialty coffees from creative and reputable roasters available also served the best coffee. Regardless of their equipment choices.

It should also teach that people in general - as also in any given "coffee scene" - run around by following other people's opinions. If someone who has a Robur is really sad to not have a "better grinder", then why on Earth did he buy it in the first place? Was it 'not good' then, or was it 'good'? I think it's a classic. Anyway it never was cheap.

Maybe he thinks that a Robur is not sexy enough, then let me tell him: coffee is not sexy. It is not about being sexy. A naked body, or a naked body veiled behind some appropriate lingerie could be reasonably called sexy (if it really is a sexy body, otherwise not), but not coffee. A supermodel might be sexy, also an actor that sold his soul to Nespresso might be called a sexy dude, but not coffee. Coffee is good or otherwise it is not good.

But people love to listen to prophets and then kid themseves. I haven't been to Vienna (well not in the last 45yrs, so I wouldn't know much of the coffee there), but what my Scandinavian coffee enthusiast friends have shared, there's not much to look for... Maybe things have changed, since they have EKs....?

Don't get me wrong I love an EK, but it is not the only way to reach a perfect goal. It is only one way (like Mythos is another).

And yes, by focusing on the bean with good enough grinder (let it be conical of flat burr) should be the way to go. Trends come and go. And they will. And some people will follow.
That is why buying used gear is sometimes a very good option.

Personally I would not focus on coffee visiting Vienna, there are much more interesting things to see....even if you wanted to places like cafe Hawelka (though that is half the fun since granny died), or cafe Central are colour locale enough to satisfy any caffeine appetite

Also this thread is making me want to get out my Walkure again - we were discussing them in a pourover brewer thread a few weeks back.
I have always thought Walkures were particularly well suited for natural and honey processed coffees.

more than a few third wave stores in London still using Roburs.....

grog wrote:Also this thread is making me want to get out my Walkure again - we were discussing them in a pourover brewer thread a few weeks back.
I have always thought Walkures were particularly well suited for natural and honey processed coffees.

Oh my goodness! I bought the Bayreuth version of the Walkuere brewer (the modern design of the Karlsbad) while in Vienna and it has been nothing short of amazing. Sweet, elegant, flavorful cups that keep stunning me. The porcelain grid is, I guess, not really serving as a filter but rather enabling the coffee grinds to clump together and serve as the filter itself. Quite a few of the third-wave shops in Vienna and one shop in Salzburg offered the Karlsbad method on the menu. For such an old technique, it is quite unique and has stood the test of time.

It's a shame that this brewer is hard to come by, especially in the U.S. Seattle coffee gear had them at one point, and they're still listed on Prima Coffee's site. I am a big espresso fiend but the fact that I've been reaching to the Karlsbad device as many times as to my portafilter during the last couple of days is really telling a story here.

Marcelnl wrote:Personally I would not focus on coffee visiting Vienna, there are much more interesting things to see....even if you wanted to places like cafe Hawelka (though that is half the fun since granny died), or cafe Central are colour locale enough to satisfy any caffeine appetite

Hawelka is still unique even though the old man is no longer. You can get a good traditional Italian-style cup there. Central is pretty but a complete tourist trap, and their coffee is sub-par.

There are now a bunch of third-wave shops that are totally worth visiting. Vienna also has an annual coffee festival in January showcasing Austrian and German artisan roasters (who all served FREE espressos to the crowds, imagine that) and the Austrian barista championships. There is a lot of creativity going on right now. And it's certainly growing.