Lately, timed dosing seems to be all the rage. Get yourself an accurate timer, and dosing your grinder with a pretty decent (if not outright excellent) level of consistency is easy. Timing has, perhaps, its drawbacks. For example, the relationship between the mass of your dose and timing of your grinder is a function of the bean density and the fineness of your grind, meaning that a timer is not ideal if you are changing beans frequently and you want to get the same dose out of each bean. I don't know any convenient way around those issues, but certainly a timer seems well suited to a large grinder that doesn't see frequent changes in bean or grind adjustment. Conicals, especially, don't seem to need as much tuning to keep your shot times consistent. For my own part, this fits the way I would like to use a grinder.

Getting back to the popularity of timers, of course Mahlkönig has the K30, Mazzer has now extended the Mini-E system of dosing to its titan grinders, and Elektra has a big, beautiful new grinder, the Nina Azione. I believe there is a consumer-grade timer-controlled grinder coming soon from Baratza as well. All of these grinders feature digital timers with pretty fine-grained adjustment.

Another thing that these grinders have in common is that they are doserless. Now, that can be a hot-button issue, and I don't want to say anything to ruffle any feathers here. Suffice it to say, we all have preferences when it comes to dosers, and for my own part I think that they fit the way I like to use my grinder a bit better. The other issues that I see with these timer-controlled grinders is that they are extremely expensive compared to manual grinders with burrsets in the same class, and the simple fact that a lot of us don't want to buy a whole new grinder just to get a timer-controller. For example, I love my Super Jolly, and I would hate to get rid of it. But I would like to get an accurate timer to control it so I don't have to count in my head/think about when to stop the grinder while I am trying to thwack-thwack the clumps out of the coffee.

So, with that intro, I wanted to share a couple of cool timer ideas that I have seen and ask you guys if you have seen anything comparable before. The first one is from Gimme! Coffee/Electric City Roasters. It's a commercial appliance timer (available as a double or single timer, depending on how many grinders you're looking to power) that has 1 second accuracy, along with the ability to pulse the grinder. Seeing the picture of this on Flickr a few weeks ago really piqued my interest in timers of this fashion. I see a lot of pros to this: it's got all the features I would want, it's sturdily made, commercially available, and requires no modifications to the timer or your grinder. On the other hand, it's expensive ($70 for the single, $100 for the double) and doesn't have very fine-grained adjustment.

Still, both of those negatives have the counterpoint that it's a heck of a lot cheaper than the 'electronic premium' for commercial grinders, and, at least in theory, if you have infinite grind adjustment, you should be able to account for the lack of fine-grained control on the timer itself.

Here's an image of the timer and a link to where I found it:

Waring Commercial Appliance Timer at Electric City Roasting

The other timer mod that I have seen is, to say the least, for the brave:

Franken-Robur mod by Elvin from EPNW

That is a timer-controller with no digital read-out. however, it has a 0.1 to 25.5 second range with 0.1 second increments. The catch: I hope you can read binary from a DIP switch configuration. More catches: You have to drill/cut holes in your grinder body, and you need to know how it's wired. This mod is irreversible, user-unfriendly, and downright dangerous in many ways (in particular, dangerous for your grinder's life, and your own if you're foolish enough to forget to unplug your grinder).

I guess I provided the second example more for amusement than anything else. Still, what do you guys think of the Waring Timer? Has anyone come across something similar (hopefully either cheaper or better)?

Hi Nicholas,
I'm glad you raised this topic. Earlier this year I wanted to install some sort of timer on my Mazzer Mini after lusting for the kind of control my friend has at his espresso bar with his "Search modified" Anfim Super Caminos. I come from a photography background and suddly thought: "Hey, what about a darkrooom timer". After searching coffeegeek for the subject, I realised that this had already been thought of. Tony from Metropolis a few years back bought some Gralab timers (I think model 451). I managed to get one off ebay for about $40 and have been using it for 6 months or so. I think I've probably saved that much in unwasted coffee since then. The model I have (which is an older one) has tenth of a second accuracy from 0-10 seconds and within one second accuracy above 10 seconds, which is fine for my mini. Here is a pic of the older model I have:

I recently read a post by the guys at barismo about the grinder mod that they did. Seems like an even nicer, elegant option:

http://barismo.com/2008/08/grinder-timer-modification.html
cheers,
Kaelin

Kaelin, thanks for your input--sounds like you found some more affordable options that are more adjustable and user-friendly. I think that the Waring Timer still rules the roost in terms of a low-impact, no-work solution, but the Omron timer in your link is pretty tempting.

in a parallel thread about the Anfim Caimano and Super Jolly, Luca Costanzo made some really interesting observations about timers in a home environment. I wanted to quote the relevant sections here and pose a few questions about them:

luca wrote:I think that all of the buzz about the Super Caimano is really more to do with the timer that has been added to it and the dosing chamber, rather than grind quality. A friend of mine bought a super caimano for his cafe and got fed up with the grind quality and stepped adjustment, though he enjoyed the doser. He ended up mounting the anfim doser to a robur and got a new timer for it, as the anfim timer wasn't sensitive enough for the faster robur. The version sold in 110V land might well have a different timer, but, even so, I find it difficult to see what clothes this alleged emperor is allegedly wearing.

...

I'm not sure what the relative costs of all of these grinders are in 110V world, but I would probably go for a mini electronic over a super jolly or a caimano at home. It is just so incredibly clean and user friendly. The timers are, IMHO, almost useless, but I struggle to believe that any timer would be useful at home. At work, I have needed to make constant and very small adjustments to the timer and/or the grind throughout the day in order to keep the shots pouring correctly. At home, I can't imagine a timer actually yielding consistent shots in the morning and in the afternoon when the grind and the timer settings are kept the same. Dialling in the timer and the grind setting also takes a bit of work and a bit of coffee - well, at least until you get used to it - so I wouldn't want to rely on a timer for consistent dosing at home, where I am constantly changing coffee.

An interesting note about consistency at home--definitely an eye-opener. I believe you're probably right about consistency issues from a timer, even a very accurate one. It's going to have significant issues needing adjustment after changing the grind or coffee, and maybe even as the day progresses (depending on how the atmosphere where you are grinding changes). Still, you seem to think that a timer is still worthwhile (you like the Mini-E for home)--as you say, it's a huge convenience in terms of cleanliness and user-friendliness. I suppose you also like the big Mazzer Electronics for the same reason?

I'm still thinking that a timer would be a nice convenience just for getting you into the ballpark on dosage without the risk of going well over if you don't shut the grinder off at the right time. This is a 'problem' I have at home. I dose from my Super Jolly into the portafilter by holding it under the doser, rotating the worthless timer on, and then thwack-thwacking while rotating the portafilter left-to right for about a 5-count (in my head), and turning the grinder off. I evaluate the coffee in the portafilter--if it looks a little low or uneven, I will dose a little extra coffee into the low spots. If I am updosing, I will tap a little on the fork and dose just a bit more in. I try to time it so that I need to sweep the chute to get the last of the coffee that I need. Really, I am pretty pleased with the consistency I get doing this.

In all honesty, what annoys me most in my routine described above is that I have to count or risk grinding a significant amount too much coffee. To put myself up for a little bit of laughter, I will admit that sometimes I absentmindedly begin to count my thwacks instead of the "seconds" in my head, killing even the crummy timer that is my own brain. I would say that I waste between 1 and 3 grams of coffee per shot that I make, depending on how carefully I am paying attention. I guess that waste annoys me on principle (I painstakingly home-roasted that coffee and now I am throwing it away!?), but it's also the annoyance of counting out the grinder while trying to break the clumps with the doser thwack and dose evenly into the basket below. Do you think I am right to assume (as I have been so far) that a timer is at the least a good way to minimize waste from overgrinding while dosing? That is certainly what grinders that come with timers advertise, right?

I wanted to quote the relevant sections here and pose a few questions about them ...

Just for the avoidance of doubt, I want to point out that my comments in the first paragraph quoted above are not relevant to the topic of this thread. The timer on the SC that my friend bought was fine for the SC, but the robur grinds faster, so he felt that it wasn't up to the task for the robur. That paragraph does not shed any light on using a grinder in the home environment beyond that. Well, and possibly beyond stating that adding a timer to a grinder has nothing to do with grind quality, but I would have thought that much was obvious.

An interesting note about consistency at home--definitely an eye-opener. I believe you're probably right about consistency issues from a timer, even a very accurate one. It's going to have significant issues needing adjustment after changing the grind or coffee, and maybe even as the day progresses (depending on how the atmosphere where you are grinding changes).

You've got it. Grind size and grind time are interlinked, so anything that throws the grind out of whack can also require a time adjustment. In a cafe, this isn't much of a problem because small changes happen constantly throughout the course of the day. In such an environment, timers can help to reduce wastage and keep up consistency.

If you find that you don't have to adjust your grind or dose much throughout the course of the day at home, you probably won't have to adjust the timer much and, in that case, you might be able to rely on it to get repeatable shots. If not, you will not be able to rely on it for repeatable shots. The point is that having a timer isn't a panacea for understanding how to use or adjust a grinder. If anything, having an extra thing to twiddle makes the process more complicated and not less. I'm sure that anyone who uses a timer will develop a feel for how to adjust it.

Still, you seem to think that a timer is still worthwhile (you like the Mini-E for home)--as you say, it's a huge convenience in terms of cleanliness and user-friendliness. I suppose you also like the big Mazzer Electronics for the same reason?

I haven't tried the E versions of the big mazzers yet and, so, can't comment. I came close to using a robur-E once, but the unstoppable torrent of drool coming out of my mouth shorted the power out.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that I think that the timer on the mini e is worthwhile from; I wrote that I like the grinder and that:

[t]he timers are, IMHO, almost useless ...

That is perhaps put a bit strongly; timers may well be useful at home if you don't have to make many grind changes and have other uses, as I will detail in response to the next section of your post.

The real reason why I like the mini E is because it provides decent grind quality and adjustability with a minimum of mess (because of the design of the funnel).

In all honesty, what annoys me most in my routine described above is that I have to count or risk grinding a significant amount too much coffee. To put myself up for a little bit of laughter, I will admit that sometimes I absentmindedly begin to count my thwacks instead of the "seconds" in my head, killing even the crummy timer that is my own brain. I would say that I waste between 1 and 3 grams of coffee per shot that I make, depending on how carefully I am paying attention. I guess that waste annoys me on principle (I painstakingly home-roasted that coffee and now I am throwing it away!?), but it's also the annoyance of counting out the grinder while trying to break the clumps with the doser thwack and dose evenly into the basket below. Do you think I am right to assume (as I have been so far) that a timer is at the least a good way to minimize waste from overgrinding while dosing? That is certainly what grinders that come with timers advertise, right?

Timers can certainly be useful in helping to stop you from grinding too much, in a few ways:

(1) I get the impression that folk expect timers to dole out the exact right amount of coffee every time, which certainly helps to keep waste down. As I mentioned above, in practice this might not work out at home.

(2) Timers can simply be used to get you in the ballpark. This is how I use the mini-E timer and why, as I alluded to, its timer isn't totally useless. One sets the timer to grind 90% of what is required, then tops up the rest manually. You will be able to use any grinder with a timer in this way as long as it has a pulse function. The mini-e is particularly good for this because it has a pretty decent portafilter rest, so you can have it do the bulk of the grinding whilst you are filling up your milk pitcher or whatever. Still, if there were a pulse only doserless mini available for the same cost as a regular mini, I would struggle to see how spending more on the mini-E was worthwhile.

(3) I guess that you could use a timer to grind slightly more than you need; doesn't strike me as especially helpful, but if you have a grinder with a timer and without a pulse function, you might need to do that.

As for clumps, distribution, complicated tamping techniques, etc, I think that the best way to go about working out how much to worry about them is to make a shot without going to any particular trouble, then add one bit back into your routine at a time and work out whether or not anything that you do actually improves your shots. If you don't follow this methodology, you might well end up doing everything that everyone writes that you ought on the internet writes is necessary when that time could be better spent enjoying your coffee or cleaning up your work station. For example, people have been oohing and aahing over how no distribution is necessary with the Anfim doser. But was it ever really necessary with the other grinders that they were using? I remember doing some work before WBC 2006 to see what elements we could cut out of our representative's routine to save some time and pulling excellent shots by doing nothing more than striking off and tamping once. So I ask this - are the clumps that you worry about actually that much of a problem? I mean, they're going to get hit by a tamper and then 9 bar of pressure!

I have a dosered Kony at home and before that I had a Super Jolly, so perhaps I can be of some assistance with your grinding technique. At the moment, I tend to eyeball the amount of coffee that I am grinding as it accumulates in the doser. Roughly two and a half sections full will give me an underdose for my double basket, then I can grind a bit more to top up. My Kony is glacially slow, so I tend to sweep up my area, scrub the group or do a cooling flush whilst grinding the bulk of what I need for my shot. I don't see any value in standing there and thwacking the dosing lever constantly, though such a technique would probably also help to avoid over grinding.

I don't put much effort into breaking up clumps; I don't get a perfect puck, but I don't get huge clumps either. Some time ago, I put a few wires across the exit chute from the dosing chamber as Andy S cleverly suggested. I can't remember if it really did much to break up clumps (it might well have), but it didn't hurt and it doesn't require more time when I'm around the espresso machine. I think that that mod did help the coffee to fall down in more of a straight line without having to thwack the lever as hard to make the coffee bounce off the inside wall of the spout. My Kony doses pretty straight, but my work area still gets messy. This is not because of the doser, it is simply because I tend to dose up to a bit of a mound and strike off and at that dose level, there will be mess with any grinder. At one of the cafes that I formerly worked for, they are using 3x baskets for all shots and dosing them right down (ie. no rapping to settle), which keeps everything clean and consistent. My Kony's doser is still pretty messy, so I might do the tape mod. That said, my Kony is on loan, so I ought to work out when it is going back and maybe pick up a Mini E to replace it.

Hope that helps, and I would be very interested to know how often people make adjustments to their grind, their dose and their timer settings at home if they use a timer,

Luca

Hi Nicholas,

since I installed my DIYed grinder controller I can't imagine going back to a non-timer grinder version. It's just so much easier to dose without having to use a scale eveytime and I have to say that you can get pretty much the same amount of coffee each time if you sweep out any leftovers from the 'neck' chamber of the grinder (the area which connects the chute and the grinding chamber). It's easy, consistent and almost no coffee gets waisted.

The unit I'm using has 0.1s resolution, allows saving you favourite 'single' and 'double' dose and switching between Manual and Auto mode. Manual mode is quite helfpul when clean-grinding after the grinder has been sitting idle for a while as it allows to get rid of stale coffee from the burr chamber and Auto is used for normal timed operation. Resolution of 0.1s is enough to get precision of around 0.1g and the setting can be changed from 3.0s to 25.0s using '+'/'-' microswitches. It has a 2 line 16 character LCD which shows which mode you're in, what's the current timer setting is and whether the SSR output is engaged or not. It is really similar to the controllers used on Mazzer -E models and it's not really a surprise as I wanted to get as close to the original as I could. Now I'm not going to bore you to death talking about the electronic bits, but if you're interested in putting a similar thing together have a look here:

macap-mc4-electronic-grinder-controller-project-t7321.html?hilit=major%20controller

http://toomuchcoffee.co.uk/index....ight=grinder+timer

The good thing is it's an auxilary device, so you don't have to modify your grinder at all and you can use it with pretty much every grinder out there (I used it on my Macap before and now it runs with my Major). The only thing that needs to be added is an SSR inside the grinder, on the power cable, so that it can be driven by the controller. The total cost of the unit was around 40$ and took probably less than a week to put together.



You can of course not use an LCD (which is easier from a software point of view) and simply use a HQ pot, like here:



This is a project done by JonS from our European forum TMC and if you want more details on that check out the thread here:

http://toomuchcoffee.co.uk/index....ight=grinder+timer

I'm pretty sure JonS is a member here so if you have any questions he should be able to answer them.

The good thing about such DIYed controllers is that they cost less and you can add whatever functionality you want. Of course assuming that you know at least a bit about electronics and know how to program uCs (although I don't have a huge amount of experiance when it comes to electronics).

Now the only thing I need to do is install the recently acquired doserless funnel into my Major and the mod will be completed.

Regards,
dsc.

Thanks dsc/Tom for the shout. I'm the same JonS as on TMC.

I should probably add that I've recently built a second version of my timer with the addition of a momentary footswitch input to complement the button on top, for a barista-friend of mine here in the UK to use in his cafe.

Obviously, I use mine at home, though I think I'll retrofit the footswitch option soon as I really missed it once I'd handed that one over to my friend after testing it for a week.

Mine is used with a Dosered Macap MXK conical and although the timer itself is capable of excellent repeatability, obviously there is some variance in the amount dosed shot to shot due to the grinder. In particular, due to the large exit chute on the macap, there is obvious variance between a first-shot-after-a-clean scenario, where this chute is empty, and the subsequent shots where this chute has "blocked up" with coffee. The choices here seem to be:
1) always brush the chute out
2) never brush the chute out and do a quick purge grind with the timer before the first shot of the session (easy with my timer)
3) Clean the chute out as you like, and accept the variance between the first and subsequent shots of a session, using a quick manual "top-up" grind (easy with my timer, especially with the footswitch option!) on the first one
4) My current personal favourite: Clean the chute out at the end or beginning of a session, but run the grinder briefly with my fingers over the exit chute to artificially "block-up" the chute, so the first shot behaves more like the subsequent ones

I should add that the reason (4) is my favourite rather than the simpler (2) method, is that I noticed that my MXK seemed to have a tendency to purge the left hand side of the chute quicker than the right hand side. I figured I could guarantee fresher coffee for the first shot if I used method (4) perhaps at the expense of slightly more wasted coffee.

In terms of the benefits for home use, I think given this understanding, the resulting volumes, even with a dosered grinder, are consistent enough. I also find that I really save on waste coffee from the fill and level method by dosing the right amount to start with. Although, the ability to do short, manual grinds, as well as having the timer run for the full set time, are key to making the process work.

One comment I will add, is that I found the whole timer control malarky a lot more compatible with my Macap MXK than it was with my Mazzer Mini dosered. The Mazzer rate of grind seemed to be a lot more sensitive to grind adjustment than the Macap. An old, stepped, Super Jolly also exhibited more apparent variance in rate when I used the timer with that at my barista-friend's house. Doubtless there are some proper explanations for this, but the MXK obviously has Conical Burrs and a potentially higher torque motor in its favour.

My timer didn't end up being particularly cheap to build. The control circuitry was pretty cheap, but the use of quality, robust, expensive parts for SSR, control pot and button really whacked up the cost ! Possibly overkill for home use, but I'd always planned on building something that would last a long time.

I wouldn't be without it to be honest I like to run the grinder with plenty of beans in the hopper, and I never really enjoyed the whole weighing beans business as a means of controlling dose. The timer fits in well for me at home.

Luca, sorry to misconstrue what you said about the Mini-E. I meant that you liked the grinder that had a timer, not that you liked the timer itself. As you say, overall it's a clean grinder, and the dosing interface is user friendly, and while not super-accurate, gets you into the ballpark and has a pulse function. I think this is what I am looking for in a timer, but I really don't care for a Mini-E, personally.

luca wrote:As for clumps, distribution, complicated tamping techniques, etc, I think that the best way to go about working out how much to worry about them is to make a shot without going to any particular trouble, then add one bit back into your routine at a time and work out whether or not anything that you do actually improves your shots. If you don't follow this methodology, you might well end up doing everything that everyone writes that you ought on the internet writes is necessary when that time could be better spent enjoying your coffee or cleaning up your work station. For example, people have been oohing and aahing over how no distribution is necessary with the Anfim doser. But was it ever really necessary with the other grinders that they were using? I remember doing some work before WBC 2006 to see what elements we could cut out of our representative's routine to save some time and pulling excellent shots by doing nothing more than striking off and tamping once. So I ask this - are the clumps that you worry about actually that much of a problem? I mean, they're going to get hit by a tamper and then 9 bar of pressure!

I have certainly been guilty of using techniques that consume time and really don't offer a lot in the cup. I've eased back on that a lot since I got my Super Jolly, as I found my convoluted routine less helpful on it than the Mini. At this point I don't feel there's too much unnecessary in my routine. I probably could stop thwacking the doser, but I think it's genuinely useful in making sure that I know when to shut off. So that is certainly something that could go with a decent timer. My leveling technique is a pretty consistent single slice over the top, tossing the few extra grinds onto the tray, and then I tamp by resting tamper level on the grinds, tapping the side of the portafilter to knock the grinds (for cleanliness), and then a light tamp. I could just do a single tamp--indeed, my per shot group cleaning routine probably wouldn't notice the difference.

Thanks again for your comments, Luca. I am gathering that a timer is going to have limited use, but can really hike the convenience factor in terms of reducing waste and the amount of time I have to spend in front of the grinder. It seems like, while it might not dose as accurately as I may be able to, it can grind a lot more consistently than I do, which will certainly reduce waste. I think you also highlighted the usefulness of a pulse function--for when the timer goes too short.

Tom and Jon--REALLY neat mods you guys have. The 7 unlabeled buttons on yours, Tom, is a little intimidating, but impressive nonetheless. I think that my ideal would be an adjustment knob (a la Jon's), a button to grind on the timer, and a pulse button to grind on demand. seems like you need this to purge old grinds out of the grinding chamber, and also to top off if your timer is under on dose. I don't know how I feel about a display. On one hand they are very nice for changing and returning to settings. for example, I might want to dose 18-19g in my big Synesso basket for a few shots, and then go back to my usual 15-16g in my double basket. That could be a real pain with no readout to have relative reference points for each setting.

Hi Nicholas,

Initially I was planning to fit the whole thing in the doser lid and even came up with a labels sticker to go on top of it:



For now it ended up in a separate box, because I didn't have the doser lid at the time when I was putting the controller together and when it finally came I couldn't be bothered to fiddle with the cables again (cutting holes and alike). I might do the switch sometime soon however, although I already know what the buttons do and tend not to make mistakes (it happens from time to time if I'm not focused and I press the grind button instead of the mode button which can be a bit messy, especially considering that I haven't got a doser or any other shout mounted on the grinder).

I think that a digital version with switches is a bit better when it comes to programming various doses, IF you do something like that of course. Heck you can even add a feature which allows to scroll through the 'saved' values and pick the one you want. On the other hand the pot knob lets you change settings faster and the HQ one that Jon decided to put in his unit is quite precise as well.

Regards,
dsc.

Obviously, it's all too easy to end up over-stating the whole timer business, especially having built one from the ground up to one's own specification, and the pride factor involved in that. Depending on your preferences, technique, and equipment, it might make a big difference, or it might be next to useless. YMMV, really.

A lot of it is making up for deficiencies elsewhere. For example, I find it much easier to thwack and dose evenly in the basket if I don't have to count at the same time, or worry about exactly when to turn off the grinder by eyeing the volume. I also found that things worked better for me, if I split dosed with my Mazzer Mini, and a timer could potentially help with that (halve the time and press the button twice ? Or make it an optional feature ?)

The footswitch control is very enticing, especially in a cafe environment, but also in the home, where you can simply start thwacking as soon as the grinding starts, and it makes topping up, when necessary an absolute breeze.

If I had an evenly distributing grinder, and, additionally, in the case of the Mazzer Mini, one that ground with a bit more fluffing, I might not be as concerned about making that process easier. But the issues are there and they're very apparent, and I say that being pretty satisfied and happy in general with my kit.

Although I'd originally intended to go the darkroom timer route, I struggled to find one that would do 0.1s precision above 9.9s, and none of the affordable ones seemed to be particularly solidly built either, or were not rated for the electrical loads involved. I designed my own 3 digit 0.1s timer, but struggled to find the "finishing off" parts that would allow me to build it in a sealed, rugged manner. I'd seen a lot of 555 timer projects, and I liked the "analog" concept, and the hype the "Search" timer on the Anfims had generated, but I wanted to build something that was easily configurable for different grinders without component modifications. Hence the microcontroller approach, which made it easy to incorporate start / stop & reset, and purge functionality from the single button, as well as the internal switches for grind rate / time window. And when configuring it for different grinders, I wanted the same adjustment range and step size to be in use irrespective of the grinder, so it was more intuitive in use. It's really a testbed for other ideas as I have them, I still think there are things that could be done to improve what we have. Crazy as it may sound, I'm currently looking at adding a USB port to the timer to allow easier / more detailed configuration calibration and monitoring of what's going on, from a laptop.

The grinder still seems to be the ultimate limiting factor to repeatability, whether it's in terms of holding varying amounts of coffee back, grind rate changing with grind setting, or perhaps unusual motor startup and spindown times that throw out any attempt at calculating an effective rate. Understanding the limitations, understanding the grinder and understanding why a timer might be of benefit for some, is key to choosing and getting the most out of a timer. It's hard to say everyone should use one (though if you haven't tried one I recommend you play with one) but I don't think they can be easily dismissed either. They are however, just another tool in the toolbox.