After reading on HB, CG and alt-coffee for 2 months and "shopping" for a quality grinder... Am I the only one who believe that Mazzer, Macap etc. are not listening?
In the 400-800$ range all that I see is '50 design with some little new features.
Do you expect us to be happy to pay 400-800$ for a device that still has the same'old design and flaws and having to tweak/mod it? Having your "holy" name on it doen't worth that much to me, I'm not shopping for a piece of Italian art! By design flaws I mean : Vertical setup, motor (heat) below grinding unit. Horizontal flat burr setup (conical make a little more sense for that setup but still). Ok guys time to re-think your design, give that old patent to the Chinese at least they will be able to put it on the market for 50$ (or less) in which case I wouldn't mind buying some "flaws"...

Let's look at a fairly good unit from a company that seems to listen to their customers. (that is what I get from lots of forum threads)
The KA Proline (sugg. retail 299.99 but you can easily find it for 150.00) all you need now (listen KA) is a stepless knob and a good quality burr. And I'm pretty sure that won't rise the price that much. Well at least not even close to what the Italian connection is asking for their line of grinders!

My point is I don't believe Mazzer, Macap and alike are offering grinders that are worth 400-800$. Don't get me wrong they do a good job but hey the technology/knowledge for better grinder is out there (Versalab). Make it affordable and listen to your customer.

By the way I'm still shopping for a good grinder, any deal out there?

nic


PS added by moderator: Many of our members frequent multiple coffee sites. Please avoid cross-posting your question, or mention the other site(s) to avoid repetitive responses (CG and alt.coffee).

Uh Yeah... They aren't listening nor are they reading the forums and boards like they should. It will take someone coming up with a grinder that really shakes things up for them to change in any big manner.

When TerryZ and I went to the Mazzer booth and spoke with their reps, they weren't listening nor did they really even care about topics we had discussed. Their answer to the heat issue that some of the large volume shops experience was to fill the doser all the way up and dispense and that would give the motor time to cool. Yikes~! Try telling a 3rd wave shop thats what they need to do.

I did get to see Versalab Grinder last fall at the Albina Press party during the NW Regional Barista Competition. It looked cool as it sat there unused while folks were able to choose the choicest espressos from 8-9 Mazzer grinders that night. I was told that they had intended to use it but the all the steam and moisture in the air from the espresso machine and mass amounts of people rendered it useless. Not particularly practical for cafes I'd say.

At one point I did hear that Compak was listening to baristas and industry folks, but that doesn't necessarily do anything for home users either.

Hacks and mods might be your only quick fix solution to this problem. I hope I'm wrong.

I'll be following this, it should be an interesting thread if it gets going.

Maybe the new (speculated) LM direct path grinder will turn out to be more than vaporware?...

I saw an M3 "on display" at a past SCAA. No beans were being put through it however. Interesting design but I haven't seen any show up in high volume shops. Furthermore, after following the M3 thread here, I don't believe I likely will...

nicfortin wrote:Let's look at a fairly good unit from a company that seems to listen to their customers. (that is what I get from lots of forum threads)
The KA Proline (sugg. retail 299.99 but you can easily find it for 150.00) all you need now (listen KA) is a stepless knob and a good quality burr. And I'm pretty sure that won't rise the price that much. Well at least not even close to what the Italian connection is asking for their line of grinders!

well this is something i had been thinking about prior to the good fortune.

i researched burrs that had similar measurments as the KA proline. so i measured the spare burr set i have for the KA.

OD - 58mm
ID - 33mm
thickness. - 8.5mm
rotation - right-hand

the mazzer mini burrs are the same specs.

the only difference is the hole pattern. KA 2-hole mazzer 3-hole.

so i took apart the KA. from the looks of it it could easily be modifed to have a 3-hole pattern to hold the mazzer burrs. i was going to order the burrs to do it. then fate changed my path.

i still have the notion to drill out a 3-hole pattern in the KA. but i probably should use a drill press. i dont have the skill or the proper tools.

cheap KA + mazzer burrs = maybe worth it?

just a thought.

later.

jon

There's five main issues:

1. Absolute grind quality: This one is solved for people willing to pay -- large burrs (conicals have a longer coarse grinding path than flats of the same size) and slow rotation speeds.

2. No stale grinds: The side exit grind chambers retain a few grams, and this gets worse as rotation speeds go down. A straight through grind path, or moving the burrs axis to horizontal are both time honored solutions.

3. Single shot dosing. Dosers rely on staling coffee. The identical doser arrangement dispensing beans into the grinder, rather than grounds out of it would work just fine. Something that weighed the beans going in would be even better.

4. Getting the grinds into the basket. "Doserless" grinders suck even worse at this than old fashioned dosers. How difficult would it be to have a locking system for the pf, it doesn't sound that hard. Alternatively, the funnels on some grinders like the mini-e or the tranquilo could have a shutter attached to become a single portion doser. That way one doesn't have to stand there like a village idiot waiting for the basket to fill.

5. Overheating motors when used for single portions. Belt drive solves this, and I'm suire there are plenty of motors designed for frequent stops and starts.

The problem isn't technology; all the pieces are out there. The problem is demand -- way too few people who give a crap. Sadly, the OP is, in effect, part of the don't give a crap group, although he doesn't think so: there is no way manufacturers will produce new designs unless people are willing to pay a premium for them until the market for them builds.

nicfortin wrote:Do you expect us to be happy to pay 400-800$ for a device that still has the same'old design and flaws and having to tweak/mod it?

This is the advantage of capitalism. If you think the marketplace is doing a poor job producing a product, then you can design an alternative, raise the necessary capital to produce it, and market it. If your product sells you can make a handsome profit. If it doesn't sell, you can lose a lot of money. So by all means go for it!

I don't think the companies making grinders are not listening. If you look at Macap, for instance, they produced a stepless grinder to meet consumer demand. And they undercut the price of Mazzer grinders to compete. Completely redesigning grinders for the home market (in the $400 plus price point) is not (yet) a wise business decision. Look at what the Versalab grinder sells for and how poorly it holds up and your basic Mazzer or Macap looks like a true bargain. Most grinders worldwide are purchased by cafes that want a reliable machine that can quickly and easily dispense coffee ground suitably for espresso. The grinders available on the market do this quite well.

Maybe if the home barista market continues to pick up in the US and elsewhere we will see some of the features that might better meet the needs of the typical home user, but until then don't count on it.

Cheers,
Ken

I think we have to accept that the vast, vast majority of grinders manufactured and sold are used to make very Italian espresso which means using a doser and letting coffee sit a while.

When a significant portion of the market wants something new that will return the investment that has gone into the new product then that product will appear. For now not enough people want something significantly more.

Plus - and this is important - Italy doesn't think that its espresso has problems.

It is more complicated than the 5 issues of another jim. For a home coffeegeek, we just don't all drink espresso. My first cup of the the day is a fp, the coffee is ground directly into a preheated pyrex "beaker", the portafilter holder removed from my MM. So I need a grinder that also easily shifts from a coarse to a fine grind, stepless for the next 1 to5 espressos.

Marvin

nicfortin wrote:PS added by moderator: Many of our members frequent multiple coffee sites. Please avoid cross-posting your question, or mention the other site(s) to avoid repetitive responses

Hello Moderator!
So just to be sure... Next time I do that I should say or put a link to all the sites I've posted that text? is that it?

Sorry for any prob it might have cause...
I did post the same text on CoffeeGeek, Home-Barista and Alt.coffee too

Keep that for you guys (HB) it's here so far that I've receive the best replies!

nicfortin wrote:So just to be sure... Next time I do that I should say or put a link to all the sites I've posted that text? is that it?

Generally speaking, I discourage cross-posting.

There are cases where it makes perfect sense, e.g., you're looking for a hard to find part and want to "throw a net" as far as possible, or you have in-depth results to share (e.g., Ken Fox / Jim Schulman's The Impact of Preinfusion on the Taste of Espresso Shots). Otherwise I encourage the poster to choose the venue they prefer; I'm not at all offended if that's not here. That said, not everyone agrees on the etiquette of cross-posting sites, so a compromise for those who wish to query the audiences of several forums is to simply link the other site(s). Those who frequent the other site(s) can then read/respond where they prefer.