I'd say from firsthand experience of them that Electronic dosing grinders are the wave of the future for the home market *and* the commercial market. I think that most champion baristas would agree with me, judging by the USBC/WBC trends I have seen/read about.

An argument about which sort of grinder is theoretically better is fine for an R&D lab. And it's even fine for a grinder designed to be doserless from the ground up. But we're talking about grinders designed for operation with dosers. So the Mazzer engineers scratch their heads about lunatic Americans, then paste on a funnel, a silly little propeller, and a grid on the outlet to control static. And guess what? The grinder doesn't work right. Gee, what a surprise!

The OP has persuaded himself that his burr isn't quite right, and one that is a just little different may do marginally better. But the simple fact of the matter is that this conversion to doserless is ruining these beautiful grinders, since the grind chamber and chute were designed from the get go to feed into a doser.

another_jim wrote:But the simple fact of the matter is that this conversion to doserless is ruining these beautiful grinders, since the grind chamber and chute were designed from the get go to feed into a doser.

Ever used one? Once it settles in I think its going to be brilliant (as I said, only 2 pounds through it now). There is a marked difference since I got the new burrs. I'm not quite sure how you could term it ruining the grinder. Since the grinder is the same as one with a doser, then all we are talking about is the delivery system. I like doserless. Yes, it will keep some stale grounds in the chute, but explain to me how this differs from the doser version? As far as I am aware, the only difference is the anti-static grid not the size of the chute or grind chamber.

shadowfax wrote:I'd say from firsthand experience of them that Electronic dosing grinders are the wave of the future for the home market *and* the commercial market. I think that most champion baristas would agree with me, judging by the USBC/WBC trends I have seen/read about.

I agree. And its not just me convincing myself of it since I've bought one. I upgraded from a Mini-E to the Robur-E because I already knew I liked the doserless option . As I said a few pages ago, each to their own in the doser vs doserless argument.

Not that I've ever been able to visit Intelligentsia, but I believe they have opted for Synesso and Robur-E's in their stores, and from what I hear they are pretty much up there with the best?

And thanks to all that have chipped in with useful suggestions aimed at helping me resolve the problem.

Cheers, Chris

shadowfax wrote:I'd say from firsthand experience of them that Electronic dosing grinders are the wave of the future for the home market *and* the commercial market. I think that most champion baristas would agree with me, judging by the USBC/WBC trends I have seen/read about.

Timed grinding isn't new, Schomer implemented it long ago. And time and doserless are not mutually exclusive. Couple years ago everyone was ga-ga over the 555/pot mod'ed Anfins. Have the same setup in one of my Majors and hate it. Much prefer stepped discreet 0.1sec increments. The pot is too sloppy for a fast grinder and is subject to bumping. I do fully agree to benefits of timed grinding, especially in a commercial environment. One of my cafe grinders is a lowly SJ (with doser tape mod of course), works marvelously plugged into timer currently set at 6.5sec for City+ Ethiopia Sidamo SO double.

As far as doserless ran an SJ with Mini-E funnel and static guard (not grind, oops) and found it messier than doser. Went back to doser. But that's just me.

miKe mcKoffee wrote:Timed grinding isn't new, Schomer implemented it long ago. And time and doserless are not mutually exclusive. Couple years ago everyone was ga-ga over the 555/pot mod'ed Anfins. Have the same setup in one of my Majors and hate it. Much prefer stepped discreet 0.1sec increments. The pot is too sloppy for a fast grinder and is subject to bumping. I do fully agree to benefits of timed grinding, especially in a commercial environment. One of my cafe grinders is a lowly SJ (with doser tape mod of course), works marvelously plugged into timer currently set at 6.5sec for City+ Ethiopia Sidamo SO double.

As far as doserless ran an SJ with Mini-E funnel and static grind and found it messier than doser. Went back to doser. But that's just me.

You're right about the non-mutually exclusive bit. Makes me think of Dave's pic of Michael Elvin's Major E + Elvinator'ed doser. I've also used the Anfim with the stupid little pot mod. So darn sensitive, I thought it was the stupidest thing I'd ever seen, so sensitive I found adjustment ridiculously irritating. Infinite grind adjustment and small steps (Mazzer has 0.05s steps) is easily the way to go.

Doserless SJ--I have used it too. I made one. If you haven't used a properly functioning Robur E, I don't think there's much point in trying to compare it to other Mazzers, or any custom modding you may have done. It's way nicer--way less clumps, and really hardly any static. The real problem with the Robur is TONS of waste if you're making < 100 shots a day.

That said, I have my robur set up with an Elvinator and a photo enlargement timer; I really like this setup, and I am honestly glad I didn't spend the extra for the E. I wouldn't mind spending some money on a slick timer on the lid like the E, though. Tom (dsc) really needs to make me one...

Hi guys,

So the Mazzer engineers scratch their heads about lunatic Americans, then paste on a funnel, a silly little propeller, and a grid on the outlet to control static. And guess what? The grinder doesn't work right. Gee, what a surpise!

Well the above is a surprise as it actually works. At least for me and a bunch of baristas across the globe.

Tom (dsc) really needs to make me one...

The parts probably cost around 50$ (or less), it shouldn't take more than a day to put it together and perhaps another day to stick it in a suitable box. You get 0.1s adjustments (it is possible to get smaller steps, the timer is software based) and single/double programable buttons + auto/manual operation. I can make you one if you're interested, heck even throw in a lid for it as well (I have one spare). There's only one small problem, lack of free time:|

Regards,
dsc.

shadowfax wrote:You're right about the non-mutually exclusive bit. Makes me think of Dave's pic of Michael Elvin's Major E + Elvinator'ed doser. I've also used the Anfim with the stupid little pot mod. So darn sensitive, I thought it was the stupidest thing I'd ever seen, so sensitive I found adjustment ridiculously irritating. Infinite grind adjustment and small steps (Mazzer has 0.05s steps) is easily the way to go.

Thanks for the Elvinator reminder, plumb forgot about it. Just downloaded the template to add it to the Major I'm refurbing and will be adding it to all the Majors & SJs I use.

Doserless SJ--I have used it too. I made one. If you haven't used a properly functioning Robur E, I don't think there's much point in trying to compare it to other Mazzers, or any custom modding you may have done. It's way nicer--way less clumps, and really hardly any static. The real problem with the Robur is TONS of waste if you're making < 100 shots a day.

No argument. While haven't had the pleasure of using a Robur-E undoubtedly Robor funneled grinds behave much better than SJ funneled grinds.

That said, I have my robur set up with an Elvinator and a photo enlargement timer; I really like this setup, and I am honestly glad I didn't spend the extra for the E. I wouldn't mind spending some money on a slick timer on the lid like the E, though. Tom (dsc) really needs to make me one...

SSSSHHHHH! Don't talk about how great those photo enlargement timers work! They're on the bulky side but love how they work. Just this morning lost an eBay auction at the last moment for another one. (Have 4 so far but need 5 more. Goal is to have one for all my cafe grinders, 4 short. Really now 5 short since they work great on non multi-hundred$$$$ blenders for fraps and smoothies too so will need one for the blender at the 2nd cafe working on opening, and it's 4 espresso grinders of course.)

After reading this entire post I am intrigued on this timed business for grinding. What do I need and how would I set up my Rio(re-branded Mazzer Major)for timed grinding?

Ron

This thread might get you started on that. I'd recommend the darkroom timer switches as the easiest thing for someone who's not technically inclined.

gyro wrote:So the new burrs arrived today. Got them installed and churned through 2 pounds of coffee. Visually the burrs were smoother looking, but still quite rough in places. Last go on the original burrs (after 10+ pounds) I was doing a double in 8.5 secs and seemed very inconsistent and the grind felt coarse. It started the same today, but within a couple of pounds it has settled considerably and is doing a 17 gram double in 6.5 secs with reasonable consistency. The grind felt more like I am used to from the Mini E.

There are still little coffee cubes coming out, but they are much less dense than before, and a simple finger sweep makes them disintegrate nicely with no WDT, no channeling.

Still seems slower than it should be, but perhaps as it seasons a bit more it will get a bit quicker. The grind is much better than the last set already.

Cheers, Chris

Well I've had around 5 pounds through the machine now, and its definitely speeding up and becoming more consistent. Its down to 5.5 secs now for a double. Mazzer are apparently starting their own production line for conical burrs, the ones I received are from their external supplier however.

I own a set of Robur burrs and when the showed up I was appalled at the condition of the edges. A really good close up picture sent to Mazzer got back an immediate request for my address and a promise of 2 sets of replacement burrs. After discovering my lack of a Robur S/N they changed their mind and told me to take a hike. The first response makes me believe they are aware of a problem with their supplier.

Ira

I own a set of Robur burrs and when they showed up I was appalled at the condition of the edges. A really good close up picture sent to Mazzer got back an immediate request for my address and a promise of 2 sets of replacement burrs. After discovering my lack of a Robur S/N they changed their mind and told me to take a hike. The first response makes me believe they are aware of a problem with their supplier.

Ira

gyro wrote:Well I've had around 5 pounds through the machine now, and its definitely speeding up and becoming more consistent. Its down to 5.5 secs now for a double. Mazzer are apparently starting their own production line for conical burrs, the ones I received are from their external supplier however.

I have 2.8sec for a 14g double,with Nino.3.8sec,for 19g.

Interesting stuff. Theodore, were those timings consistent from the start, or has the grinder increased it throughput, and hence decreased it grinding times, since you've had it? My burrs are now about 5 secs for 17 grams, a big reduction from 8.5 secs to begin with.

OK, time for a quick update. Burrs no 1. were definitely a dud set. Burrs no. 2 provided by retailer (also Mazzer OEM, but 'outsourced' production) were OK. They started off slowly and were obviously in the process of bedding in. I think after 15lbs or so, they would have been acceptable. To look at, they were still shoddy, but nowhere near like set No 1.

So I emailed Mazzer with the whole story, and they kindly offered to send a new set from their new CONICAL burr production line. Apparently they have just started this. Anyway, the burrs arrived today and the difference was immediately noticeable.

The entire finish was different, the quality of the burrs was immediately obvious, and surprisingly a bit of a different cut to the burrs was easy to spot in the fine grinding zone.

New burrs on the left, originals on the right.



So I am pleased I pressed this. I was very disappointed originally, but this last set of burrs is what I believe it should have been all the time. Grinding times are in line with what I expected (4 secs for 17.5g) after only putting 2 lbs through them. I have no doubt some of the previous outsourced burrs were absolutely fine, but the QC must not have been very good and I must have been unlucky.

Cheers, Chris

Indeed, the new burrs have a more vertical angle to the cuts; I'd imagine that means it makes a more aggressive cut (which would make it grind faster). Probably ups the torque requirement, but I imagine the Robur is up to it. Thanks for following up...

Great to hear it finally worked out for you. What is the grind and taste comparison to the two sets of burrs?

Javacat wrote:Great to hear it finally worked out for you. What is the grind and taste comparison to the two sets of burrs?

Thanks, me too!

To be honest, all I have done is run through a couple of pounds of old beans. Pours looked excellent, but tasted awful, which was what I expected with stale bulk beans. The wastage factor on it for my level of usage is too much so its basically going to lie idle for a couple of years until the cafe eventuates. I'm now using the Nino daily and its excellent, although still settling down. I will say though, that the pours from the Robur-E (with the newest burrs, and also the previous set) were picture perfect in terms of central cone and tiger striping even with the old beans. Better 'looking' even than what I am currently getting from the Nino with good fresh beans. Low wastage factor on the Nino is just superb though.

I occasionally grind a few pounds of beans for friends, once I've got the new Robur burrs over 10lbs or so, I'll have a taste test between the two (robur/nino). No way my brain can recall the difference in the two later sets of Mazzer burrs without them operating next to each other, even then I doubt it. The main point I am pleased about is the obvious improvement in the quality of the manufacture of the burrs, which I believe has a direct relationship with a reduction in time required for them to be seasoned/worn in.

Cheers, Chris

It took me 7 KG to season the burrs on my Robur and I'd like to extend the topic with the following question:

Are we being a little too precious about clumps from a Robur-E?

I was about to make a device to break the clumps that form by being extruded through the exit chute on my Robur. Then I thought to myself, "Why do I feel the clumps are a problem in the first instance?".

The clumps from my Robur when tamped or even gently touched break up. I can imagine more solid clumps being a problem but any clumps from my Robur are not dense enough to make me think they will stay clumped inside the puck once tamped.

What do you think?