jthor wrote:Dude, read the titan grinder thread;the SJ is not even in the CMH class; no comparison; end of story; the Vario is comparable to a lower end drip grinder like a Krups or Cappreso conical. End of story my friends. The Vario should not be used at all for espresso grind; poor quality, consistency and cup experience.

JT

You have failed to read the Vario reviews. Your statements are not substantiated by the facts. I'd do a "ready and aim" before I fired - particularly if I had neither compared the Vario personally nor done a survey of the ample postings about the Vario. I believe you may be thinking of the earlier Baratza grinders to which some of your comments might apply.

jthor wrote:Dude, read the titan grinder thread;the SJ is not even in the CMH class; no comparison; end of story; the Vario is comparable to a lower end drip grinder like a Krups or Cappreso conical. End of story my friends. The Vario should not be used at all for espresso grind; poor quality, consistency and cup experience.

JT

I'd be very curious to know what you're basing this on.
From what you've said, it doesn't seem like you have any personal experience with the Vario, and what you're claiming is in direct contradiction with a good deal of others' experiences.

Duuuuuude, answer the question . . . Have you used both a CMH and a Baratza Vario?

jthor wrote:Dude, read the titan grinder thread;the SJ is not even in the CMH class; no comparison; end of story; the Vario is comparable to a lower end drip grinder like a Krups or Cappreso conical. End of story my friends. The Vario should not be used at all for espresso grind; poor quality, consistency and cup experience.

JT

So now the Super Jolly isn't even in the class of the Cimbali Max Hybrid? The CMH is a great grinder, but if you do read the TGP you may find that it doesn't necessarily agree with your assertions about the SJ. My take away was that the SJ is an amazing grinder (as is the CMH). I was lucky enough that I was able to go out and try many of the titan grinders and my conclusion was that a well dialed in Super Jolly is amazing and even rivals the Robur (I even confirmed this again this week). If you don't trust me, how about one of the main participants in the Titan Grinder project...

HB wrote:I was among the reviewers that scored the Super Jolly as "different but equal" to the Robur, though the Jolly demands more attention to dosing and grind setting...

But perhaps we should just review grinders based on their price, not on actual use of them (or even better let's just claim that whatever we own is clearly better than anything else).

jthor wrote:Dude, read the titan grinder thread; the SJ is not even in the CMH class; no comparison; end of story

Huh?

jthor wrote:the Vario is comparable to a lower end drip grinder like a Krups or Capresso conical. End of story my friends.

Huh?!

jthor wrote:The Vario should not be used at all for espresso grind; poor quality, consistency and cup experience.

Huh?!?

I will not respond to these points other than to say your comments do not accurately capture the Titan Grinder Project results, my experience, or the reports of highly respected forum members. As stated in the Guidelines for productive online discussion:

Be open and honest. Many people rely on opinions presented in these forums as part of their purchase decision. The source of the information you present and basis of the opinions you express are as important at the statements themselves. For example, you should make it clear whether you speak from first hand experience, what you read elsewhere (and if appropriate, link to the source), or conventional wisdom.

Contrary opinions are welcome, however, I renew Jason's request that you clarify the basis for your statements above. Opinions based on first-hand experience (and ideally blind taste tests) carry more weight than those based on the writings of others.

hperry wrote:I believe you may be thinking of the earlier Baratza grinders to which some of your comments might apply.

Agreed; the Baratza Maestro is a fine grinder for drip/French press, but insufficient for espresso.

zin1953 wrote:Duuuuuude, answer the question . . . Have you used both a CMH and a Baratza Vario?

This is a very sensitive thread when it comes to Vario. I am not attacking the Vario. I am just pointing out that individuals are trying to compare this grinder with a titan or SJ, when in fact it is not in that class; the Vario should, at best, be compared to the Mazzer Mini or the Compak K-3. Discussion of the Vario started with the price and comparison to the Mini and it has since morphed into comparison with a titan.

I suppose that it is not worth repeating that you have failed to answer the question, but rather, continue with unsupported assertions. This makes any further response to you on this topic without purpose.

. . . and you STILL haven't answered the question, have you? I would think it would be a relatively simple matter to say "yes" or to say "no," but it appears there are complications of which I am unaware.

* * * * *

I owned a Mazzer Mini, and as I've (far too often) said, the single biggest improvement I've ever made to my espresso, in terms of equipment, was getting rid of the Mazzer Mini and replacing it with a Cimbali Max Hybrid (CMH) in February 2008. Since purchasing the CMH -- which I still own and use as often as five days a week in my office -- I have also purchased, and still use, a Mahlkönig K30 Vario (K30V) and a Baratza Vario (BV). These were acquired in September 2008 and just this month, respectively.

OK, so given my experience with both, I judge the CMH to be a vastly superior grinder to the Mazzer Mini. It's my opinion, but based upon my experience. Others are certainly entitled to their own opinions, but I would hope -- of course -- that their opinion, too, was based upon experience and not on a flip of a coin, so to speak.

Again, based upon my experience with these grinders, I prefer the K30V to the CMH. I also prefer the BV to the CMH, even in the few short weeks that I have used both. It's quieter, it's neater, it's as least as fast (I haven't timed it, so that's just a gut feeling), and the quality in the cup is as good or better.

Does this mean that the Mazzer Mini or the CMH are bad grinders? No, not at all. As I've said, I happily use my CMH regularly, and there is no doubting the fact that the Mini is a quality grinder as well. But there are better choices out there, and in the case of the BV, better choices for less money.

The comparison between the BV and the Mazzer Super Jolly (SJ) -- that they were at least the equal of one another in terms of grind quality -- was originally not one that I made. I have never owned an SJ and therefore would not make such a comparison. However, it was initially made by people who have owned/used both, people whose opinions I have come to respect over the years, and based upon what I have tasted using an SJ and a BV, a comparison which I can understand and with which I do not disagree.

That said,

jthor wrote:I am just pointing out that individuals are trying to compare this grinder with a titan or SJ, when in fact it is not in that class; the Vario should, at best, be compared to the Mazzer Mini or the Compak K-3. Discussion of the Vario started with the price and comparison to the Mini and it has since morphed into comparison with a titan.

I do not consider the SJ to be a "titan," as in those grinders associated with the original "Titan Grinder Project":

HB wrote:In early January, we began discussing HB projects for 2007. Noting the increased interest in conical grinders and their merits compared to flat burr favorites like the Mazzer Mini and Super Jolly, Dave suggested a top-end conical grinder match up. Looking over the potential contenders, we accepted that today's definition of "top-end conical" sometimes meant a grinder larger and more expensive than those traditionally destined for the home . . . From smallest to largest, the Titan Grinder Project contenders are:

• Macap MXK: conical 63mm burrs (link)
• Cimbali Max: conical / flat 64mm burr combo
• Mazzer Kony: conical 63mm burrs (single phase model, link)
• Mazzer Robur: conical 71mm burrs (single phase model, link)

The Robur was included in the line up for "shock value" and to answer the implied question, "What am I missing from a more modestly sized home unit, if anything, compared to big commercial grinders in use at the best cafes?" Finally, to provide a comparison against a well known and representative flat burr grinder:

• Mazzer Super Jolly: flat 64mm burrs (link).

The goal of the Titan Grinder Project is to not only provide information about the grinders themselves, but the quality of grind and differences, if any, in the cup.

That said, comparisons are made when they are applicable, and I'll compare my old 1978 Renault R5GTL "mini-car" with a small Toyota or Chevy pick-up truck in terms of how many cases of wine I could carry (23), and that's a lot more than I can fit into my 2007 Lexus! On that measure of comparison, that old Renault beat the socks off small pickups AND much fancier sports sedans. (Indeed, my old Renault used to regularly out-corner Porsche 911s going over CA Hwy 17, until we'd hit a straight-away and the Porsche would blow my doors off!) But which car would I rather own today? My Lexus. No doubt about it. It wins on a different comparison -- comfort, as well as speed and a few other things.

SO, unless you want to tell me that you've used both the CMH and the BV and prefer the CMH -- in which case I would respect your knowledgeable opinion, though would respectfully disagree -- I'm done with this discussion.

Jason

P.S. As I wrote in another thread, "Informal Comparisons by a Vario User -- Mahlkönig K30 and Baratza":

zin1953 wrote:OK, so let me quickly say that I'm not about to ditch the Mahlkönig K30 Vario, and it is superior to the Baratza Vaio. But that said, I have to admit that the thought has crossed my mind that those of us with titan (or titan-esque) commercial grinders at home are crazy: they are big, way too tall (at least as designed) for the average kitchen and, seriously, how many of us truly need a grinder capable of producing between 120-720 doubles per hour? OTOH, the Baratza Vario seems to be a "professional-grade grinder in a conveniently home-sized package." I can seriously see it "killing" the home market for new Mazzer SJ's, for example, as well as Mazzer Mini's, Macap M4's, and so on . . .

Hi guys,

Agreed; the Baratza Maestro is a fine grinder for drip/French press, but insufficient for espresso.

Considering the Vario produces enough fines for proper espresso extractions I'd say that it's not super suited for drip/FP. In my opinion you can't have a grinder that can be used for all existing brewing methods as the requirements are too wide/not possible to meet.

Regards,
dsc.

Let me just try to throw in a few ideas:

Disclaimer: I owned neither the Cimbali Max nor the Mazzer Super Jolly. I have not worked with either grinder yet. This is not based on first hand experience, just on what I read on this forum.

My reading of the TGP let me to believe that the Cimbali Max held it's own against the best of Titan grinder and even gave the Mazzer Robur a run for it money in the "Can it beat the Robur". With this result, clearly the Cimbali Max would come out looking (to me) like more "espresso value" than the Robur if one factors in the price. I know that the Cimbali Max is a lot less than perfect and has a few quirks. From what I read the excessive noise seems to be the most commonly referred to annoyance.

Also, throughout the aforementioned tests the Mazzer SJ, from what understand, demonstrated a very high level of "espresso value" in that it received very high taste quality praise and served as a very capable reference for the comparisons. But in the same breath, I have not read anywhere that the Mazzer SJ performed as well as the Cimbali Max against the Robur.

That being said, I came out of the reading thinking that the Cimbali Max was a better performer than the SJ on both taste and consistency. Since the Cimbali Max Hybrid and the SJ are in the same cost range (currently within $20.00 US of each other), one would think that the Cimbali Max would be a "Much" better "espresso value" than the SJ.

Based on the above, I can understand that Jthor, may have a right to say that the Cimbali Max is a "better espresso value" grinder than the SJ. Whether it is in a different ballpark may be a bit of an exaggeration but still, there is ground for this statement, of one gives value to the judgment of those that participated in the aforementioned tests.

The above brain masturbation of mine is valid for brand new grinder of course. There are a multitude of Super Jollys available on the second hand market and there are very few Cimbali Max or Max Hybrid available. The former situation brings the price down and the latter situation brings the cost up. So for used grinders the "espresso value" spread between the two grinder is getting thinner.

Based further reading on this forum in the many Baratza/Mahlkonig Vario Home (referred to as B-Vario thereafter), it seems to be commonly accepted that the B-Vario is as good, different but as good as the SJ. Thus if one considers the price, convenience of auto-dosing and very low retention and very small foot print, the B-Vario would come out as a "better espresso value" than the SJ (to me at least) for a brand new unit.

If one considers that the SJ is widely considered as "extremely durable", to say the least, and that the cost of used SJ units (in working condition with new burrs) is very similar if not lower than a brand new B-Vario, than the "espresso value" difference between the two may become very similar.

Further disclaimer. I have paid very close attention to the writings on the Cimbali Max because I considered, and as a matter of fact, I am still considering buying one. I bought a B-Vario to have a secondary grinder of some quality to be able to quickly switch to French press while still be able to change beans for espresso without having to mess with the primary grinder.

Why is everybody coming down on JT? He has a right to his opinion and may come to a different conclusion than anyone else. His statement on the performance of the B-Vario may have been a bit misguided and misinformed but we should try to inform him not tell him off.

(I started writing this post before Jason's and Tom's posts and did not read theirs at this time)


Edit: I do not want to be the voice of morality or judge the previous posts. I am no better than anybody else! )