OldNuc wrote:That is the big cause of the push to flat burrs, lighter and lighter roasts. Soon the roast to have will be just entering 1st crack.

Have already tasted espresso that light

Terranova statement falls in line with my experience, to get the best out very light roasted coffee, you'll need a flat burr grinder, in most cases. I have tasted and tested enough coffee to have acknowledge that conicals often fall short when coffee is roasted very, very light, certain SO that tasted great with flat turned out excessively bright and unbalanced, and the credit conicals often are associated with, seemed to work against it.

and a 22% yield on a conical is rarely any good, if you can even get it up there, that is

The last several posts really hit the nail on the head, CONTEXT!

For example, light roasted Ethiopians just approaching or finished first crack - I use E37S - great for black coffee.
Impossible to get a tasty balanced extraction with the HGone.

For most beans / blends once I get to within 5°C of second crack onwards, this is where the HGone really shines and its great for milk based drinks - big flat just gets cloying and muddled.

Find what works for your taste preferences / set-up and try to get the best you can out of it.

OldmatefromOZ wrote:The last several posts really hit the nail on the head, CONTEXT!
....
Find what works for your taste preferences / set-up and try to get the best you can out of it.

It is not just the grinder, It is the entire collection of hardware and the coffee that produces the final result.

OldNuc wrote:The burr type that an individual thinks is the best is a function of ---the flavor of the day effect---, roast level and origin of the beans, water chemistry, and a foot long list of other variables only poorly described/defined.

OldNuc wrote:That is the big cause of the push to flat burrs, lighter and lighter roasts. Soon the roast to have will be just entering 1st crack.

OldNuc wrote:What you like the taste of and what roast/origin you are grinding has such a large impact on the grinder characteristics/design every grinder test or discussion is only anecdotal without this information specified up front.

OldNuc wrote:It is not just the grinder, It is the entire collection of hardware and the coffee that produces the final result.

I think we understood your point, but also when you repeat it more often, it won't change the fact that many of us prefer a flat burr grinder, when using light roast.
I totally agree with you that there are more variables than just the grinder.

OldNuc wrote:It is not just the grinder, It is the entire collection of hardware and the coffee that produces the final result.

Yes thanks....
What Terranova said.

Terranova wrote:I think we understood your point, but also when you repeat it more often, it won't change the fact that many of us prefer a flat burr grinder, when using light roast.
I totally agree with you that there are more variables than just the grinder.

Interesting, since I'm thinking about a new grinder and would be very interested in optimizing for light roast. What currently available flat burr sets are the best choice?

Anfim Super Caimano with titanium burrs is phenomenal.

what is the biggest conical out there? Is it the 3-phase Robur?

If I am not mistaken they are

Robur 3-phase 83mm
Robur single-pase 71mm
Ceado E92 71mm
Pharos 68mm (and others)

Then you get into smaller burr sets, correct?

Big Conics By Nominal Burr Size

I think this is a complete list of big conics currently or recently on the market in the US:

83mm

• HG One
• Mazzer Robur 3 phase, and Robur E 3 phase

71mm

• Ceado E92
• HG One 71mm (not currently in production)
• Mazzer Robur and Robur E

68mm

• Compak E, F, and K10
• Macap M7D
• Orphan Espress Pharos (no curently in production)

63mm

• Fiorenzato Doge
• Mazzer Kony and Kony E

Nominal conic burr diameter can be a bit misleading in that it's an imperfect guide to grind surface area. Moreover, burr diameter is as burr diameter does.

After a lot of time, trouble, beans and driving all over SoCal to do informal grinder testing; and after a lot of thought, and rethinking, I don't think there's much difference in the cup between the Ceado, Compak E and F10, HG One, M7D or the Robur. Not enough to matter much, anyway. Note that all of the grinders in my list are "low rpm."

On the other hand, I felt the Doge and Kony fell a little short across all four criteria I used; spectrum, separation, clarity and mouthfeel. Smaller burrs,faster rotation, something else?

There's more to a grinder than how it performs in the cup, and if you're buying a conic in the 68mm - 83mm range, you want to give real consideration to things other than burr size. For instance, Mazzers -- for all their reliability in commercial settings and excellence (imo) in the cup -- are a huge PITA for residential use.

As a class, "big flats," seem to do as well as big conics when it comes to clarity; with the exception of the KK43, which is a clarity monster. But the EK43 is not a great espresso grinder, at least not to my tastes. While a lot of very knowledgeable people disagree, that view isn't as iconoclastic as it was a few months ago.

The only big flat which I thought did as well in the cup as the E92, K10, M7D and Robur across spectrum, separation and mouthfeel for medium roasts, is the Anfim Super Caimano Barista.

I hear the NS Mythos Barista is as good or better in the cup than any conic, but have yet to try coffee ground by any Mythos in a way which lends itself to comparison. Another grinder I haven't yet but would really like to try is the Ceado E10; 83mm, powered by 740W, spinning at 690 rpm, for $1150 sounds interesting.

If I were buying a new grinder tomorrow from the list of grinders I did "test," price not a consideration, it would be a Super Caimano Barista or another E92. Of course, I'd at least try to hunt down a Mythos. But, my circumstances are such that price is not only a consideration, but an important one. E92 ftw.

I neither pull nor drink lightly roasted espresso. If flats grind light roasts better than conics, or vice versa, you couldn't prove it by me. I'll leave the discussion to my betters.

Finally, consider that even though there might be slight differences in presentation, at some level of grinder quality you get darn near everything the bean has to offer.

Rich

With big conicals:

The 68mm Compak and 71mm Mazzer are basically the same. Outside diameter changes, but cutting paths are about identical.
Comparisons between Compak K10 68mm & Mazzer Robur 71mm burrs [photos]

With the 71mm and 83mm Mazzer.
They are very similar. I believe cutting path remains the same. The burr diameter just increases so it has more teeth.
3 phase Mazzer burrs