sweaner wrote:Robert, I have a Mazzer Mini, and I suspect that even it is the largest grinder in MY neighborhood.

Scott...as much as I hate to say this( ) I have the smallest grinder in the neighborhood, my KyM manual.

Anyone had the chance to compare shots using the Robur E? I haven't seen anything about it except on the EPNW site, and curious if the auger to reduce popcorning (or speed or other features) produce a difference in the cup.

Over the last few weeks I have had the chance to use both a Mazzer Robur conical and a Compak K10 WBC grinder during the testing of the Dalla Corte Mini. The Robur was well reviewed during the Titan Grinder Project and it certainly lived up to its billing. I did have the Schectermatic mod installed. There is also a good threads on the Compak K10 here and here.

That all said I thought you might be interested in the differences I found between the two machines. I would also point out that I focused strictly on espresso drinks. Frankly I can't see this kind of investment for a French press anyways.

First off, I have to point out that I have a Macap M4 which I really like(d) - a few weeks with these guys and I am now suffering from a bad case of Upgraditus. Both machines delivered a superior grind to my M4. They were fast, consistent and produced a great cup.

Overall I would have to give the nod to the Robur. It is built like a tank (it weighs 62 lbs), is wonderfully finished and delivers (in my mind) a better grind (less clumping). To this point Dan and I are going to test out both machines side by side next week and take a few pictures for y'all to see the differences. I found the Robur ran a bit faster than the K10 as well. It does take a little practice (and a lot of coffee) to get used to the speed. The K10 was the WBC model and some folks have suggested it runs a little slower than the standard model. Both machines delivered a shot that I found had more clarity than what my M4 could deliver. I've also referred to this as a "cleaner" cup. Flavors were better defined and I was able to pick up a few more subtle notes in the coffee. I did get my M4 out today and it seems to take forever to dose a shot after having gotten used to the speed of the large conicals.

With the Shnozzola in place the Robur delivered a perfectly centered and uniformly piled dose. All I had to do was swipe and tamp. Nary a mess was left around the grinder. The K10 did a good job but does throw its grinds to the left. I found I always had to play a bit with the back left corner to get a good uniform dose. I also didn't much like the pf fork. Couldn't seem to get the pf into the right spot even though I was using a bottomless.

Both machines swept the doser quite clean. I was particularly impressed with the K10 here. Hardly any grinds left at all after a session. That said both machines did hold coffee in the throat. It was a bit of challenge to get to these leftovers on the K10 because of the finger guard. It required a Torx tool to remove it so I just left it on and dealt with it.

Both machines are stepless and require you to turn a collar. The Robur was a little easier here because of the placement of the collar lever. The K10 is around the back so you just end up grabbing the collar and twisting.

Noise on both machines was much quieter than my M4. I give the nod to the Robur hear again but there really wasn't much difference.

Oh, did I mention the size. They are both huge and dwarfed the Dalla Corte Mini beside them.

So bottom line - both machines would be a great upgrade to my M4. Both gave me a better and cleaner cup. The Robur is definitely the better machine build wise but is twice the price of the K10. The only thing really stopping me from this kind of an upgrade would be the shear size of these guys (at least that's what I keep telling myself).

Will give you an update after next weeks side by side,

Cheers

Ian

woodchuck wrote: I found the Robur ran a bit faster than the K10 as well. It does take a little practice (and a lot of coffee) to get used to the speed. The K10 was the WBC model and some folks have suggested it runs a little slower than the standard model.

The Robur should be faster because it has a larger conical (71mm vs 68 mm on the K-10) and runs faster (60Hz 500 rpm/ 50Hz 420 rpm vs 300 rpm on the K-10). I have not had a chance to use the K-10 but a barista recently confirmed a speed difference.

Specs can be found here:

K 10
Robur

I remember reading that the non-WBC K-10 previously was 400 rpm. If they changed the gear for the WBC version it would seem reasonable to use the same on the normal K-10.

Edit: Before AndyS jumps on me - the above data is for the single phase Robur. The 3-phase 83mm Robur-king-of-the-hill eats the single-phase version for breakfast I heard

eastpresso wrote:The Robur should be faster because it has a larger conical (71mm vs 68 mm on the K-10)

That's the outside diameter. As far as I know the inside diameter is almost the same!

Jacob wrote:That's the outside diameter. As far as I know the inside diameter is almost the same!

Err.., afaik 3mm difference is 'almost the same'? The difference in rpm is not so small...always provided the (Italian and Spanish) specs are accurate Both grinders are ridiculously fast for the home anyway, so no point in arguing.

Not to beat a dead horse, but I would mention that grind speed is a function of rotational speed, diameter, and cutting surface design. For example, the Mahlkönig K30 and Mazzer Super Jolly have similar diameter and rotational speed (I believe the K30's rotation may be a bit slower), but the K30 bests it by a huge margin on speed. I believe it's roughly twice as fast, getting into Robur/K10 territory.

From what I have seen, all the commercial conical burrs look pretty much the same on cutting surface design, so this is probably not a significant factor in this case.

Ian, thanks for your comparison of these two grinders. Although I don't know if to be grateful or jealous--I'd love to get my hands on a K10 to see what it's like for myself. I'm looking forward to seeing the photos of your grind comparison.

eastpresso wrote:Err.., afaik 3mm difference is 'almost the same'? The difference in rpm is not so small...always provided the (Italian and Spanish) specs are accurate Both grinders are ridiculously fast for the home anyway, so no point in arguing.

Having owned 2 SJ, one with Duranium burrs, I can't imagine why folks AT HOME would require anything faster, especially if grinding directly into the PF/basket. My gosh, I did 16 grams in around 5 seconds with the Duraniums!
Forgive me, but dwelling on speed comparisons of monster grinders seems just a little.....obsessive.
If I had these 2 grinders, I'd be concentrating on taste, ease of distribution, NEATNESS, performance of the doser, ease of cleaning the throat, etc.
Just my 1.5 cents.

IMAWriter wrote:I can't imagine why folks AT HOME would require anything faster, especially if grinding directly into the PF/basket. My gosh, I did 16 grams in around 5 seconds with the Duraniums!

Once you get used to fast grinders, 5 seconds seems a little slow, actually. A three-phase Robur at 60 hz does a double dose in about 1.5 secs. That extra 3.5 secs really comes in handy for doing essential stuff like spitting or scratching one's crotch.

To be truthful, though, I normally run the Robur at 36 Hz. At that speed it takes a laidback 2.5 secs to grind 14g. This is OK, though, because previously, with all that scratching time, I was beginning to get a bit sore.

IMAWriter wrote:Having owned 2 SJ, one with Duranium burrs, I can't imagine why folks AT HOME would require anything faster, especially if grinding directly into the PF/basket. My gosh, I did 16 grams in around 5 seconds with the Duraniums!

AndyS wrote:Once you get used to fast grinders, 5 seconds seems a little slow, actually. A three-phase Robur at 60 hz does a double dose in about 1.5 secs. That extra 3.5 secs really comes in handy for doing essential stuff like spitting or scratching one's crotch.

Scratchin' time! Gotta agree with Rob though: once you're down to a few seconds of grinding time, anything faster is probably too quick for accurate dosing (unless you have an electronic timer). My SJ with 64mm Duranium burrs ground slightly faster than my (sluggish single phase) Robur. I suspect the flat burr K30 (or the Major with 83mm burrs) grinds even faster. Conicals are not typically speed demons, Andy's three-phase monster notwithstanding.

woodchuck wrote:First off, I have to point out that I have a Macap M4 which I really like(d) - a few weeks with these guys and I am now suffering from a bad case of Upgraditus.

Uh oh...

AndyS wrote:Once you get used to fast grinders, 5 seconds seems a little slow, actually. A three-phase Robur at 60 hz does a double dose in about 1.5 secs. That extra 3.5 secs really comes in handy for doing essential stuff like spitting or scratching one's crotch.

To be truthful, though, I normally run the Robur at 36 Hz. At that speed it takes a laidback 2.5 secs to grind 14g. This is OK, though, because previously, with all that scratching time, I was beginning to get a bit sore.

This post is a companion piece to my Hand grinder thread "My voice has Changed", referring to pressure exerted in a sensitive area ....well, ya know.
1.5 seconds...holy cow!!!

Well we did get to do a side by side at our Friday get together at CCC. First off the the two grinders together with the K10 sporting the smaller hopper.



It was hard to tell much difference between the two grinders by looking at the loaded pfs. If anything the K10 was a little more "fluffy":



The one on the left is the K10.

Taste wise well we didn't quite get there. As with all good plans we got derailed a bit by some coffee that just wouldn't behave. It was a newer organic espresso blend that Tim is working on. We couldn't get a consistent shot to work from. Not only that we couldn't agree amongst us on the taste profile. Tried two different LMs and had the same experience. Coffee Gods were obviously elsewhere today.

I brought some home to try a couple of different temperatures profiles.

Just a quick shot of Dan Kehn and Bob Barazza "hard at work":



Cheers

Ian

One thing about the K10 is that you can clean the insides in 3-5 mins with a cute tip and a vacuum cleaner. I turn the grinder by hand from the top with a 6 mm allen wrench. I clean mine after use and that makes it nice for single shots (just put what you use). That helps me a lot in staleness management since I never have to do a purge (blow old grounds).



This is a picture showing the accessibility to the chute. I use a kitchen spatula (cut with scissor) to scoop what is left in the chute after each grind. I also use a toothpick container to push the beans in for measured single batches. I waste very little coffee.



Cheers