another_jim wrote:The step up in taste and shot consistency from home or decaf (e.g mini) grinder to a full commercial is so large that it trumps everything. But when one is dealing with just the good commercial grinders, taste is always going to be fairly close; and usability becomes a bigger issue.

My pet theory is that annoyances trump virtues in this regard. If you hate messy dosers, you won't be buying a Mazzer; if you hate noise and vibration, you probably will. Ken and I both had a choice of the Max and the WBC as grinders. He was annoyed by the way conical burrs that are 60 to 70mm in diameter are housed in grinder bodies designed for 80 to 90mm flats, so that one had an endlessly deep chute to clean out. I realize this was a negative, but I wasn't particularly annoyed by it. On the other hand, I was annoyed by the grand parade ground for beans that greeted me when unscrewing the Max hopper; again, a minor negative that happened to greatly annoy me.

Now if these annoyances influence an amateur who uses the grinder a few times a day; think on how it must weigh with baristas doing hundreds of shots each shift.

Now if only someone can explain why the numbers on the Compak grind adjustment face inward instead of outward

You mean that the 83mm trifase Robur, is better than the 71mm monofase,as the burrs diameter is in the 80-90mm region you say?
Also, I have been informed by a German guy, that the Nino Elektra grinder, 68mm conical, has,as he says,
..." You have less than 0.5g remaining coffee ground in the pipe and this mechanism is patented for Elektra".
It is the best news I have read about the cleaning issue of a grinder.

Wilco,

First of all, I want to echo what someone else said somewhere on this site: I have really enjoyed reading your comments on the K10. Thank you for your contributions.

NoMilkToday wrote: . . . people who mainly produce lattes should possibly buy a grinder with a different taste profile than people who mainly produce pure espressos.

Perhaps. Perhaps not. I honestly don't know, but how would the average "home barista" know for sure? Going back to my "fantasy" . . .

if, for example, everyone could have access to 10, 20, 50(?) grinders -- all dialed-in, all with the same fresh beans, and the same espresso machine

Obviously that would certainly help people make a decision, but since it is -- unfortunately -- a fantasy, at some point, one simply has to "take the plunge" and actually buy a grinder!

I know of very few people who have what I shall term "serious" espresso machines in their home. (By that I mean machines like my Elektra and La Valentina, a GS/3, Vivaldi, or any of the "prosumer" machines frequently discussed on these pages.) Most of the people I know who own espresso machines have Gaggias, or superautomatics, or (gulp!) Francis! Francis! models. Grinders??? Forget about it! No one I know has a Mazzer Mini, let alone a Robur, and the only person I know with a Cimbali MaxHybrid or a Mahlkönig is -- well, me.

So how does one make a decision? (And now we tie in to Marshall's epic thread, Sad state of espresso review journalism.) Without having direct access to try these machines for one's self, one is left reading, guessing, closing one's eyes, and taking the plunge!

Personal story: Quite honestly, I was content with my Mazzer Mini, but I knew there were better grinders out there. I was very intrigued with the Compak K10 based upon some of the comments in the "Titan Grinder Project: Can it Beat the Robur?" thread. And I even ordered one (I was not the only one) from a vendor who claimed to have it in stock, but shipped a different machine (K6). Obviously I returned it. When the K10 actually arrived, the price was significantly higher, and I lost interest. Then, when some of the problems Ken Fox was having came to light (this was prior to these being eventually resolved), I really lost interest and moved to the Cimbali MaxHybrid, and I've been quite happy. A great deal came up on the Mahlkönig, and after reading good things about it, I grabbed it, am very happy, and moved the CMH to my office (as I said before).

Would I be happy with the K10? I'm sure I would. Would I prefer it to the K30 Vario or the CMH? I have no idea, and I probably never will. Not unless I'm able to have all three grinders in my home for about a month . . .

Jason,

Your post brought me in a contemplative mood:

The truly obsessed are always low in numbers, no matter the subject. This also holds true for the community of hardcore espresso addicts. To arrive at satisfying buying decisions we, indeed, have to travel a rocky road. Unsufficient opportunities for meaningful comparisons of all the equipment on our shortlists force us to highly imaginative interpretations of opinions shared on the internet in order to formulate our assumptions, in which - in an unclear way - our personal experiences are intertwined. Thank god (and Dan Kehn) for the existence of Home-Barista and all those who contribute.

Happily, I am not emotionally attached to the equipment I own. Sometimes I fantasize about breakthrough inventions in the espresso world and what these could contribute to improvements in the quality of espresso. Then I think of new revolutionary ways to grow and roast beans, computerised pumps (creating individual pressure profiles), new ways to control the temperature as measured from the puck itself instead of the boiler and so on.
Everything for one inspiring goal: to produce the best espresso possible. And at the moment such new devices enter the market, I for one, would not waste time, and buy such new toys immediately and push through my old toys to less ambitious souls. All from the credo "You only live once, so why not live life to the fullest".
I see a parallel with the high-end audio community. Vast numbers of music lovers who periodically upgrade their equipment in order to get concert quality sound in their homes. Espressobeans can be compared to music: an endless variation of tones. And perhaps just like beans, good music always come through. Even on a crappy radio the essence of good music can be enjoyed. To what extent this also holds true for beans seems to be a perpetual debate in these circles.

Best wishes. Wilco

In this post I share more observations in using my K10. The topics are:

Consistency
Improvement advice to Compak
Output volume
LM single basket
Happiness

Consistency
As Jim hinted at in his post above, one of the main features of a big conical grinder is consistency. Users of flat burr grinders possibly associate this with "less need for interim grind adjustments because of changes in humidity". In itself this is true. Another aspect of this consistency is "positive expectations". In advance you know for certain that you will produce and enjoy great shots of a consistent high quality. This gives peace of mind and brings satisfaction on a higher level.

Looking back, in my VBM Super/Mini days, I had a lot of variation in the quality of my shots. This is mainly due to the specific character of a HX-machine. I was not able to manage the big temperature swings of the VBM with the corresponding flushing technique on a consistent level. Frankly, a lot of luck was involved.
After upgrading to a PID-controlled machine, my beloved Duetto, consistency in output quality improved considerably. Flushing techniques were no longer needed. What a relief! An unintentional effect was that absolute quality also improved because I was now able to match the character of a specific bean with the right temperature. A boatload of beans proved to be very much more likable than I found with my VBM.
After upgrading my Mini to a K10, I now have real consistency. Every shot I make is divine (or so I think). And knowing that in advance really enhances my espresso happiness.

An observation I made in the starting days of using the K10 is that adjusting the grind fineness is so easy and non critical. Very small movements of the grind adjustment collar of the Mini results in big changes in output quantity. With the K10 I can turn the collar a long way before I notice a difference in output quantity. I estimate the difference to be a factor of 5 to 10. After getting used to this (unlearning), I find dialing in a new bean to be much faster and more precise.

Improvement advice to Compak (roundup)
Is the K10 perfect? Nothing is. No complaints about the grind quality or its taste profile, on the contrary. It is the usability that needs improvement. And to be clear, the following advised improvements are "nice-to-haves"; nothing in the K10 annoys me. It is just that I think it possible that the K10 can be brought from "excellent" to "extraordinary".

As stated in my user report, Compak is advised to modify the accessibility of the chute and the cleanliness of the doser. For the chute I advise to ditch the "hand protector" and shortening of the chute itself. Perhaps also a good idea is changing the form of the chute by widening it somewhat more at the output side, like a horn. For the doser I advise Compak to study Teme's modification description, in which the dosing sector is ditched and the "electrical tape mod" is implemented, and hopefully in a more elegant way (less DIY like).
The third improvement could be the repeatability of the grind fineness. As, again, Jim pointed out, the present numbering of the grind collar seems insufficient. The improvement should be like numbers that are to be seen from a little window, as implemented on some grinders of La Cimbali. With a great grinder like the K10, you really want to maximize its big conical being, so to say. Since long I'm used to finish a whole kilo of beans before I change to a different one. When the repeatability of the grind adjustment would have been improved, I foresee to use different blends in one session, all for the goal of discovering new tastes within a short time. I like this thought. Maybe I make too much about this and is the repeatability already on a high enough level because of its present non critical fine adjustment. We'll see.

Therefore, Compak, if you read this, please go on with implementing further improvements in the K10 WBC and prove that the perceived customer orientation is not an incident but part of the firms policy. And if you would be so kind, make all coming improvements retrofittable. Thank you in advance!

And now I digress. Today I visited the hospital to undergo a MRI-scan (nothing serious). I was welcomed by a charming, very good looking nurse who invited me to lay down on the bench before the opening of the scanning machine. I was surprised and asked "But don't I have to undress? I have put on my fashionably new boxer short, just for this occasion." The nurse looked pleasantly surprised and said "You make me curious. Please, take off your pants and hang them on the hook there. I will gladly admire your new boxer." Wow, I thought, THAT is customer orientation as it is meant to be (Compak, are you inspired yet?). I will hold back the rest of this story as it is not my intention to offend prudish readers.

Output volume
Back on topic. In my VBM Super/Mini days I only made ristrettos as I found "normal" espressos had insufficient creaminess and mouth feel. After upgrading to the Duetto and still using my Mini, I noticed both types of drinks had their own set of plus and minus points; for short:
> espresso = more volume, clearer taste (more layers) but less mouthful and less flash (caffeine shock);
> ristretto = less volume, relatively muted taste (less layers) but much more mouthful and more intense flash.

In using my K10, I no longer make 'traditional' ristrettos. Why not? Given fresh roast, when grinding for a normal ristretto, even after 40 seconds there is still no sign of blonding to be seen. Further fining the grind until blonding starts on time (within 35/40 seconds) gave me the impression I was underusing the beans, so to say.
My observation is that a big conical results in significantly more crema. Further, this crema has a denser quality with, at the same time, more foaminess and - striking - an unchanged shot weight. So, my ristretto weighs the same and has the volume of a slightly smaller espresso. And this results, as I described, in a heavenly drink; for me a truly new sort of beverage.
In the present combination (Duetto, LM single basket, K10), with the beans I used until now, I found 25 to 30 seconds to give the optimum mix of taste, mouthful and after taste. More experiments will follow.

LM single basket
With my VBM Super I only used the double basket. The single often gave me channeling. With the Duetto/Mini I found that double basket produced ristrettos had great taste, but using the single basket, taste was a tad more intense, a little bit softer, with subjectively less weight and more airiness. But I also found that successful use of the single basket requires utter precision in executing each step in the process of making espresso's or - even more demanding - ristretto's. There is no room for error! Why is that?
Mainly, I think, because of the stepped, shouldered design of the typical single basket. It requires a very exact dosing and distribution of grounds, especially in case of overdosing.
Would it not be nice if there are alternative baskets that are less finicky to work with or even produce better results?
Well, I found one: the La Marzocco single basket. Use of the LM single basket intensifies everything the K10 already delivers: a significant improvement in softness, sweetness, crema foaminess and distinction between taste layers. And, very welcoming, this thing also makes the espresso preparing process less finicky than with even the standard Izzo double basket. Warning: dose under the rim and use a convex tamper. As I said: this is a no-brainer; buy it!

Happiness
Now, I'm falling back again to my usual contemplative mood and raise this rhetorical question.

What is (espresso) happiness?

Speaking for myself, espresso happiness is not owning great equipment, it is not using great equipment, it is (for me) enjoying the end result.
I find it advisable to periodically give this enjoying a boost by performing chances in beans, equipment, procedures and shotvolume. As I am also a believer in maximizing my enjoyment; I strive continually to perfect the king of espresso: the noble ristretto.

(And now I'm borrowing some sentences from my own posts on another site, the "Duetto-thread" on coffeetimeuk.com).
Ristretto. The combination of this little cloudlet of almost 100% weightless crema and sweet, sweet complexity in taste, mouth feel and aftertaste results in a cocaine like injection of positive energy, which makes it so addicting for me. My most happy moments are in the morning when I execute my daily espresso ritual, with as ultimate reward, the tasting of the ristretto and also important, a concentrated flash of great happiness (I fly away). Afterwards, I feel energetic, creative, positive, even handsome (which is a criminal twist of the facts); the world smiles and I smile back. After drinking my usual five ristrettos, I can handle everything that is thrown at me during working hours.

Words are only words. I wrote these when using the Mini. Now with the K10, they still apply, be it with more feeling.

Happy trails. Wilco

EDITED for grammar: replaced "on beforehand" with "in advance" and "attribute" with "due" (thanks for proofreading Dan and Leontine)

NoMilkToday wrote:I will hold back the rest of this story as it is not my intention to offend prudish readers.

Wilco....feel FREE to offend!!
For all us old married folk, any thrill is......a thrill.

Until recently I had - in my head - an espresso machine and some accessories, like a grinder, a tamper, a tamp stand and a knock box. That has all changed now.

Older home baristas, no doubt, remember this American saying from the sixties: "Once you have experienced a woman, you will never go back to that hole in the wall again."
A bit retro perhaps, but that is what went through my mind this morning when I tasted a few shots of the Mini. When I boxed her up and put her in the shed for future backup duty, I hoped never to be in need of her service again. And then I went back to the new goddess in my life. Man, do I love my K10! If only she could read, I would write her a love poem.

So, she ain't perfect (as I wrote in previous posts). And that's good. Otherwise I could feel inferior in her presence. Now, we're a match made in heaven (again: espresso heaven, that is).

This evening my wife (yes Rob, I'm kind of married too!) shouted "What are you doing? You only drink espresso in the morning and now you are grinding again." Yeah, that's what love does to a man. All I want to do is consume her love. I am bad.

I know -- and I suspect a great many of us know -- exactly how you feel, Wilco. Great post!

NoMilkToday wrote:As stated in my user report, Compak is advised to modify the accessibility of the chute and the cleanliness of the doser. For the chute I advise to ditch the "hand protector" and shortening of the chute itself. Perhaps also a good idea is changing the form of the chute by widening it somewhat more at the output side, like a horn.

I think there is a technical reason why they don't make the exit chute more accessible. Jacob's thread on expanding the port exit chute exemplifies the static issues that seem to drive manufactures to keep the chutes small.

OMG. Compak is known to act fast. Let's hope they did not change their chute production already .

Thanks for the link, Nicholas. I understand Jacob paid the price for his creative tinkering. Poor guy. But let's be positive: live is learning!

As a non-technical person (I'm known to break everything I lay my hands on), I still don't see the advantages of doserless (clumping) and timers (always to little or too much). But then: blessed are the ignorant.

Best wishes. Wilco (K10 says hi too. Don't you love that girl ...err... grinder?)

Thank you for the kind words Jason. Hey Rob! K10 says if you want some excitement in your life again, she can introduce you to her mother, an industrial grinder that lives in Barcelona. Let me know.
Yeah, K10 has a spell on me. She's black and she's proud, and not shy about it. Se orders me to switch her on ... and off ... and on ... and off (after I filled her hopper, of course). Cannot get enough. Wild man.