another_jim wrote:The step up in taste and shot consistency from home or decaf (e.g mini) grinder to a full commercial is so large that it trumps everything. But when one is dealing with just the good commercial grinders, taste is always going to be fairly close; and usability becomes a bigger issue.

My pet theory is that annoyances trump virtues in this regard. If you hate messy dosers, you won't be buying a Mazzer; if you hate noise and vibration, you probably will. Ken and I both had a choice of the Max and the WBC as grinders. He was annoyed by the way conical burrs that are 60 to 70mm in diameter are housed in grinder bodies designed for 80 to 90mm flats, so that one had an endlessly deep chute to clean out. I realize this was a negative, but I wasn't particularly annoyed by it. On the other hand, I was annoyed by the grand parade ground for beans that greeted me when unscrewing the Max hopper; again, a minor negative that happened to greatly annoy me.

Now if these annoyances influence an amateur who uses the grinder a few times a day; think on how it must weigh with baristas doing hundreds of shots each shift.

Now if only someone can explain why the numbers on the Compak grind adjustment face inward instead of outward

You mean that the 83mm trifase Robur, is better than the 71mm monofase,as the burrs diameter is in the 80-90mm region you say?
Also, I have been informed by a German guy, that the Nino Elektra grinder, 68mm conical, has,as he says,
..." You have less than 0.5g remaining coffee ground in the pipe and this mechanism is patented for Elektra".
It is the best news I have read about the cleaning issue of a grinder.

Jason,

Your post brought me in a contemplative mood:

The truly obsessed are always low in numbers, no matter the subject. This also holds true for the community of hardcore espresso addicts. To arrive at satisfying buying decisions we, indeed, have to travel a rocky road. Unsufficient opportunities for meaningful comparisons of all the equipment on our shortlists force us to highly imaginative interpretations of opinions shared on the internet in order to formulate our assumptions, in which - in an unclear way - our personal experiences are intertwined. Thank god (and Dan Kehn) for the existence of Home-Barista and all those who contribute.

Happily, I am not emotionally attached to the equipment I own. Sometimes I fantasize about breakthrough inventions in the espresso world and what these could contribute to improvements in the quality of espresso. Then I think of new revolutionary ways to grow and roast beans, computerised pumps (creating individual pressure profiles), new ways to control the temperature as measured from the puck itself instead of the boiler and so on.
Everything for one inspiring goal: to produce the best espresso possible. And at the moment such new devices enter the market, I for one, would not waste time, and buy such new toys immediately and push through my old toys to less ambitious souls. All from the credo "You only live once, so why not live life to the fullest".
I see a parallel with the high-end audio community. Vast numbers of music lovers who periodically upgrade their equipment in order to get concert quality sound in their homes. Espressobeans can be compared to music: an endless variation of tones. And perhaps just like beans, good music always come through. Even on a crappy radio the essence of good music can be enjoyed. To what extent this also holds true for beans seems to be a perpetual debate in these circles.

Best wishes. Wilco

In this post I share more observations in using my K10. The topics are:

Consistency
Improvement advice to Compak
Output volume
LM single basket
Happiness

Consistency
As Jim hinted at in his post above, one of the main features of a big conical grinder is consistency. Users of flat burr grinders possibly associate this with "less need for interim grind adjustments because of changes in humidity". In itself this is true. Another aspect of this consistency is "positive expectations". In advance you know for certain that you will produce and enjoy great shots of a consistent high quality. This gives peace of mind and brings satisfaction on a higher level.

Looking back, in my VBM Super/Mini days, I had a lot of variation in the quality of my shots. This is mainly due to the specific character of a HX-machine. I was not able to manage the big temperature swings of the VBM with the corresponding flushing technique on a consistent level. Frankly, a lot of luck was involved.
After upgrading to a PID-controlled machine, my beloved Duetto, consistency in output quality improved considerably. Flushing techniques were no longer needed. What a relief! An unintentional effect was that absolute quality also improved because I was now able to match the character of a specific bean with the right temperature. A boatload of beans proved to be very much more likable than I found with my VBM.
After upgrading my Mini to a K10, I now have real consistency. Every shot I make is divine (or so I think). And knowing that in advance really enhances my espresso happiness.

An observation I made in the starting days of using the K10 is that adjusting the grind fineness is so easy and non critical. Very small movements of the grind adjustment collar of the Mini results in big changes in output quantity. With the K10 I can turn the collar a long way before I notice a difference in output quantity. I estimate the difference to be a factor of 5 to 10. After getting used to this (unlearning), I find dialing in a new bean to be much faster and more precise.

Improvement advice to Compak (roundup)
Is the K10 perfect? Nothing is. No complaints about the grind quality or its taste profile, on the contrary. It is the usability that needs improvement. And to be clear, the following advised improvements are "nice-to-haves"; nothing in the K10 annoys me. It is just that I think it possible that the K10 can be brought from "excellent" to "extraordinary".

As stated in my user report, Compak is advised to modify the accessibility of the chute and the cleanliness of the doser. For the chute I advise to ditch the "hand protector" and shortening of the chute itself. Perhaps also a good idea is changing the form of the chute by widening it somewhat more at the output side, like a horn. For the doser I advise Compak to study Teme's modification description, in which the dosing sector is ditched and the "electrical tape mod" is implemented, and hopefully in a more elegant way (less DIY like).
The third improvement could be the repeatability of the grind fineness. As, again, Jim pointed out, the present numbering of the grind collar seems insufficient. The improvement should be like numbers that are to be seen from a little window, as implemented on some grinders of La Cimbali. With a great grinder like the K10, you really want to maximize its big conical being, so to say. Since long I'm used to finish a whole kilo of beans before I change to a different one. When the repeatability of the grind adjustment would have been improved, I foresee to use different blends in one session, all for the goal of discovering new tastes within a short time. I like this thought. Maybe I make too much about this and is the repeatability already on a high enough level because of its present non critical fine adjustment. We'll see.

Therefore, Compak, if you read this, please go on with implementing further improvements in the K10 WBC and prove that the perceived customer orientation is not an incident but part of the firms policy. And if you would be so kind, make all coming improvements retrofittable. Thank you in advance!

And now I digress. Today I visited the hospital to undergo a MRI-scan (nothing serious). I was welcomed by a charming, very good looking nurse who invited me to lay down on the bench before the opening of the scanning machine. I was surprised and asked "But don't I have to undress? I have put on my fashionably new boxer short, just for this occasion." The nurse looked pleasantly surprised and said "You make me curious. Please, take off your pants and hang them on the hook there. I will gladly admire your new boxer." Wow, I thought, THAT is customer orientation as it is meant to be (Compak, are you inspired yet?). I will hold back the rest of this story as it is not my intention to offend prudish readers.

Output volume
Back on topic. In my VBM Super/Mini days I only made ristrettos as I found "normal" espressos had insufficient creaminess and mouth feel. After upgrading to the Duetto and still using my Mini, I noticed both types of drinks had their own set of plus and minus points; for short:
> espresso = more volume, clearer taste (more layers) but less mouthful and less flash (caffeine shock);
> ristretto = less volume, relatively muted taste (less layers) but much more mouthful and more intense flash.

In using my K10, I no longer make 'traditional' ristrettos. Why not? Given fresh roast, when grinding for a normal ristretto, even after 40 seconds there is still no sign of blonding to be seen. Further fining the grind until blonding starts on time (within 35/40 seconds) gave me the impression I was underusing the beans, so to say.
My observation is that a big conical results in significantly more crema. Further, this crema has a denser quality with, at the same time, more foaminess and - striking - an unchanged shot weight. So, my ristretto weighs the same and has the volume of a slightly smaller espresso. And this results, as I described, in a heavenly drink; for me a truly new sort of beverage.
In the present combination (Duetto, LM single basket, K10), with the beans I used until now, I found 25 to 30 seconds to give the optimum mix of taste, mouthful and after taste. More experiments will follow.

LM single basket
With my VBM Super I only used the double basket. The single often gave me channeling. With the Duetto/Mini I found that double basket produced ristrettos had great taste, but using the single basket, taste was a tad more intense, a little bit softer, with subjectively less weight and more airiness. But I also found that successful use of the single basket requires utter precision in executing each step in the process of making espresso's or - even more demanding - ristretto's. There is no room for error! Why is that?
Mainly, I think, because of the stepped, shouldered design of the typical single basket. It requires a very exact dosing and distribution of grounds, especially in case of overdosing.
Would it not be nice if there are alternative baskets that are less finicky to work with or even produce better results?
Well, I found one: the La Marzocco single basket. Use of the LM single basket intensifies everything the K10 already delivers: a significant improvement in softness, sweetness, crema foaminess and distinction between taste layers. And, very welcoming, this thing also makes the espresso preparing process less finicky than with even the standard Izzo double basket. Warning: dose under the rim and use a convex tamper. As I said: this is a no-brainer; buy it!

Happiness
Now, I'm falling back again to my usual contemplative mood and raise this rhetorical question.

What is (espresso) happiness?

Speaking for myself, espresso happiness is not owning great equipment, it is not using great equipment, it is (for me) enjoying the end result.
I find it advisable to periodically give this enjoying a boost by performing chances in beans, equipment, procedures and shotvolume. As I am also a believer in maximizing my enjoyment; I strive continually to perfect the king of espresso: the noble ristretto.

(And now I'm borrowing some sentences from my own posts on another site, the "Duetto-thread" on coffeetimeuk.com).
Ristretto. The combination of this little cloudlet of almost 100% weightless crema and sweet, sweet complexity in taste, mouth feel and aftertaste results in a cocaine like injection of positive energy, which makes it so addicting for me. My most happy moments are in the morning when I execute my daily espresso ritual, with as ultimate reward, the tasting of the ristretto and also important, a concentrated flash of great happiness (I fly away). Afterwards, I feel energetic, creative, positive, even handsome (which is a criminal twist of the facts); the world smiles and I smile back. After drinking my usual five ristrettos, I can handle everything that is thrown at me during working hours.

Words are only words. I wrote these when using the Mini. Now with the K10, they still apply, be it with more feeling.

Happy trails. Wilco

EDITED for grammar: replaced "on beforehand" with "in advance" and "attribute" with "due" (thanks for proofreading Dan and Leontine)

NoMilkToday wrote:I will hold back the rest of this story as it is not my intention to offend prudish readers.

Wilco....feel FREE to offend!!
For all us old married folk, any thrill is......a thrill.

Until recently I had - in my head - an espresso machine and some accessories, like a grinder, a tamper, a tamp stand and a knock box. That has all changed now.

Older home baristas, no doubt, remember this American saying from the sixties: "Once you have experienced a woman, you will never go back to that hole in the wall again."
A bit retro perhaps, but that is what went through my mind this morning when I tasted a few shots of the Mini. When I boxed her up and put her in the shed for future backup duty, I hoped never to be in need of her service again. And then I went back to the new goddess in my life. Man, do I love my K10! If only she could read, I would write her a love poem.

So, she ain't perfect (as I wrote in previous posts). And that's good. Otherwise I could feel inferior in her presence. Now, we're a match made in heaven (again: espresso heaven, that is).

This evening my wife (yes Rob, I'm kind of married too!) shouted "What are you doing? You only drink espresso in the morning and now you are grinding again." Yeah, that's what love does to a man. All I want to do is consume her love. I am bad.

OMG. Compak is known to act fast. Let's hope they did not change their chute production already .

Thanks for the link, Nicholas. I understand Jacob paid the price for his creative tinkering. Poor guy. But let's be positive: live is learning!

As a non-technical person (I'm known to break everything I lay my hands on), I still don't see the advantages of doserless (clumping) and timers (always to little or too much). But then: blessed are the ignorant.

Best wishes. Wilco (K10 says hi too. Don't you love that girl ...err... grinder?)

Thank you for the kind words Jason. Hey Rob! K10 says if you want some excitement in your life again, she can introduce you to her mother, an industrial grinder that lives in Barcelona. Let me know.
Yeah, K10 has a spell on me. She's black and she's proud, and not shy about it. Se orders me to switch her on ... and off ... and on ... and off (after I filled her hopper, of course). Cannot get enough. Wild man.

Wilco...you are one sick puppy!!
You know, I wouldn't discount the Duetto's contribution to your conjugal bliss. That's a lot more machine than many have. Enjoy the 'spro!

Rob: Thanks for bringing me down .
You are right of course. The Duetto really exploits every last bit of K10's love potion (sorry, grind I mean).

Nicholas: Good to read that your Robur is starting his magic on you. For seasoning a new grinder one truly needs to salvage some beans, two kilos at minimum, I found.
And don't let anyone tell you otherwise: the Vetrano is a fine machine. I understand that you like to modify things. If so, have you considered PID-ing your Vetrano?
Bringing the quality and especially the consistency of espresso on a higher level, in my opinion, an espresso machine needs to have a temperature controlling device, preferably a PID.

During the life of a kilo of beans (divided over airtight drawn jars; see my user report), in order to keep the right balance between sour and bitter, I have to lower the temp in steps. With my consumption rate (1 kilo is finished in 10-14 days max) the ratio proved to be 40:40:20. Translation: after the usage of 400 grams, I taste hints of bitterness and lower the temp with one degree (celsius); after another 400 grams, I need to lower the temp again for the remaining 200 grams.
With a heat exchanger, this kind of subtle temp surfing, is sheer impossible, certainly for a lowly home barista as me. Mastering the art of HX-temp surfing requires dedication and a considerable investment in practice time which most of us simply cannot afford. We have to invest that time in hard labour for funding our expensive habit, don't we?

Follow-on discussion split to Possibilities for PID-controlled espresso machines.

In a previous post, which is now part of the cruelly split off thread "Possibilities for PID-controlled espresso machines", I raised the question whether results of PID-controlled machines could be further improved by adding a thermocoupler in the E61 brewhead. This was the thinking side of me in action (had I more braincells, I could have said "intellectual" side).
My feeling side, which is always in command of me during espression sessions, told me that this question is sóóó futile and - for punishment - ordered me this morning to try to reach even higher regions in espresso heaven.
How to meet that challenge?
Just in time I remembered a tip my dealer gave me. According to top roaster Caffè Martella in Rome (who incidentally seems to use Compak grinders for quality control) one should always let the grounds rest for 10 minutes after grinding before brewing. This results in an even softer taste as usual; at least, that is their claim. The price to pay is patience between shots. Which for a caffeinated home barista ain't easy.
Anyway, the session of this morning resulted in five, indeed, extra soft tasting ristrettos. Because of the extra long aftertaste a waiting time of 10 minutes between shots proved to be less challenging as expected. Warning: this is a subtle taste aspect; but once enjoyed will be hard to give up.

NoMilkToday wrote:According to top roaster Caffè Martella in Rome (who incidentally seems to use Compak grinders for quality control) one should always let the grounds rest for 10 minutes after grinding before brewing. This results in an even softer taste as usual; at least, that is their claim. The price to pay is patience between shots.

Interesting, Abe reported similar findings in Experiments with Pre-Ground Coffee:

Abe Carmeli wrote:The result was unanimous: The pre-ground coffee was sweeter, and as a whole better integrated.... A tentative conclusion here would be that sharper coffees (overly acidic for example) will benefit from pre-grounding for espresso.

PS: I would split/merge your post above to that thread to revive it, but that would be doubly cruel. Feel free to add your own commentary to his thread, should the muse arrive.

NoMilkToday wrote: Just in time I remembered a tip my dealer gave me.

You see Wilco, i do give some nice tips at times
I know you thought it wasn't true that you could taste any difference after 10 minutes of rest after grinding but it's really a nice and "extra" subtle effect in taste.

If you want coffee at that moment, waiting 10 minutes is really, really hard

PS. are you always stirring your coffee before drinking?
That was another valuable tip

Patience
After reading the thread Dan mentioned above, I decided to let that thread rest peacefully in the grave and not blow new life into it. My possible contribution is not meaningful enough, I think. The only experience I have with the resting of grounds is with my K10 and producing ristrettos. Further, I only have experiences with three times: 5 minutes rest time (no difference tasted compared with fresh grounds), 15 minutes (fresh grounds taste a tiny bit better) and the already written about 10 minutes. Further, I decided for myself to use the 10 minute rest time thing as a subtle extra treat to be enjoyed in the weekend only; during working days I'm too much pressed for time.

Stirring
About stirring. I only experienced with this in my Mini-days. My opinion at that time was that this a worthwhile tip for espresso drinkers: it reduces bitterness; unfortunately, it reduces "mouthful" too. So, YMMV, as they say. Further, I did not like the result of stirred ristrettos. Normally, a ristretto is consumed in one long sip (and therefore "automatically" stirred in your mouth). Stirring ristrettos results not only in reducing the foaminess (mouthfeel), but also in the muting of taste layers. No, not for me, this one.

Modifications
Some potential K10-buyers worry about buying an imperfect product. They think it is strange that there is a need to modify a new product. Be realistic, I tell them. There are no perfect people (my opinion), so why should you expect there to be perfect products? Also, speaking for myself, I think the K10 does not really need the mentioned modifications. Living with an unmodded K10 is very easy, really! Just use an angled groupbrush to clean the chute between sessions and a soft paintbrush to keep the doser clean. As written in an earlier post, the described doser modifications are "nice-to-haves" only, nothing to lose any sleep over.

For people who are interested in a pro-barista comparison K10 vs K30, follow this link: http://forum.coffeed.com/viewtopic.php?p=8410
Disclaimer: this was June 2006; since then the K10 has been improved on several usability aspects and I imagine the same holds for the K30.

Wilco, thanks for the user report and above link.

Regarding the cleaning issue of the K10. Would a cleaning with a vacuum cleaner remove most of the coffee in the burr chamber?

Good to hear you are happy with the K10. Interested in long term durability and user review. Don't forget to give us a follow up review after couple/several years of use.