You're right, Ian. In commercial applications, where the volume is high enough for grinds retention not to be an issue, the "removed doser" designs will work OK.

My beef should be with the people who have touted them for home and low volume use. To what extent this includes the manufacturers, I don't know.

jammin wrote:I spoke with a vendor yesterday and heard Compak is coming out w/a new version of the K10 doserless. Supposedly it will feature an improved spout, relocated timer(top of spout), and push button grinding activation(due to grouds jamming the PF activation). It will also carry a larger pricetag. I guess they are going to show it at the SCAA this April.

Any news on whether Compak did indeed show a new version of the K10 doserless at SCAA?

Thanks

Just wanted to share my experience with my new Compak K10 Doserless. Mine was manufactured in 2/2010, purchased less than a month ago. Am using it with my Alex Duetto II.

I've only used two coffees with it so far: Espresso by Kean Coffee and Belle Espresso by Klatch Coffee. With these two coffees and with my usage (humidity etc), it clumps a lot. I use WDT, and don't mind (yet). My current bag of Belle Espresso from Klatch was roasted 11 days ago, and I still easily get gorgeous pours on my ristrettos that don't blond until almost 30 secs (5lb tamp + nutating tamp + 30lb tamp + polish).

Per Jim's advice, I've been dosing by weight after grinding using a small jewelry scale, but sometimes still use the timer when I fill the hopper 1/4 full (set the timer to give me around 14.4 grams, then I scoop off a bit as to get my 14grams). The timer is intuitive and easy to adjust.

I am a newbie to espresso and am very happy with the grinder so far, would be nice if I didn't have to use WDT but maybe with different beans the clumping will improve. I have very few problems with channeling, and find it very easy to dial in; I attribute this to the grinder since my skill level is low.

I was close to getting the Nino and also considered the Robur-E. Ultimately decided against the Nino on the basis of 1) grind adjustment mechanism annoyed me, 2) Elektra doesn't have a U.S. office, 3) I have a feeling a pulse function is in the works and would rather wait for it. Robur-E was a matter of the grind retention for low volume home use, and value given the higher price.

BTW, if anyone in California wants a 5000W step up transformer for a Nino, send me a PM. I have a brand new one with 5 year warranty.

wildbwilson wrote:Jim,
There may not be perfect doserless grinders for home use as of yet but after close to a year using both a Mazzer Robur and Major doserless

So, having two awesome grinders that are high-end. Where do you sit on the flat vs conical burr debate? In a home situation, how do they compare in taste?

another_jim wrote:In commercial applications, where the volume is high enough for grinds retention not to be an issue, the "removed doser" designs will work OK. My beef should be with the people who have touted them for home and low volume use. To what extent this includes the manufacturers, I don't know.

IMHO, I think most of the "touting" has not come from the manufacturers themselves. After all, every time there is a trade show, people from Mazzer and other manufactures are described as expressing surprise when they hear of Majors, Konys, and Roburs (and their equivalents) being used in the home. My own observation is that most of the "touting" is done by individuals on websites such as this. Speaking personally, I know I never would have looked at a high-end grinder were it not for the TGP threads generally, and the TGP: Can it beat the Robur? specifically.

Since one doesn't miss what one doesn't know, I'm fairly confident that -- had the Baratza Vario/Mahlkönig VARIO Home been available when I was shopping for my first grinder -- I would have been quite happy with two of those rather than one Mahlkönig K30 Vario + one Baratza Vario. (Of course, since I do know, I'm not giving up my K30)

And in the FWIW Dept.:

wildbwilson wrote: . . . but then again he thinks that when 49th P installs their Idrocompresso lever they will be the ONLY high volume shop in N America serving the crowds from a lever - so where does one go with that info.

I suppose it boils down to the definition of "high volume," but Caffé Vita's Fremont Ave. (Seattle) location has a 5-group BOSCO lever machine -- or, at least, they did the last time I was there. (OK, maybe it was a 4-group.) Also, Blue Bottle uses Kees van der Westen's Idrocompresso lever machines at both their café inside the Ferry Building (along with a Mirage) and at their (lower volume) location inside SFMOMA. Also in a lower-volume setting, BOSCO lever machines can be found in two SF Bay Area restaruants: Café Zoetrope in San Francisco and Bottega in Napa Valley.

Cheers,
Jason

Is there any more HBer's or shop owners that can give some more feedback on this grinder? If it's the same as the WBC model, but doserless it should be a very good grinder right? From reading the Titan project the K10 WBC did fairly well - so this should be the same.

Also, was there a new version shown at SCAA or not?

After some reading I'm so getting this grinder, It's a must. Sexy and functional definitely for the win.

Woah!

You might want to hold up a bit on that, I just got off the phone with Compak ES and spoke to a very helpful (and very good eng speaking) woman , Montse, who was very insightful about a new grinder coming to replace the Doserless model.

Introducing the K10 Fresh!

* Same mechanics as the current K10 line
* Housing should be almost identical to the current K10 models.
* Motor power (w): 760
* RPM: 300
* Conical 68mm Burrs
* New grinding adjustment (if I understood her right, just like the A8 adjustments which would mean stepless)
* New hoppers - so I'm assuming new size/quantity
* Electronic Dosing! 3 stages - single, double, and continuous. You will have full control in adjusting the amount of every dose and I believe that you can even establish different parameters so that your single won't automatically be just half of your double. The electronics will now be moved to the front of the machine
* New Chute - she couldn't go into details here and I don't know if it had to do with language or she didn't want to give away too much information, but this will be re-defined.
* New portafilter holder - again she didn't really go into details, but I'm guessing that the Chute interfered with the old design and thus this needed an update.
* The bad news - again no concrete details but from what I could infer from her during this questioning was that the Fresh will have a price increase of 200-300 Euro's over the current K10 doserless - which would make that somewhere around 1500 euros incl VAT.
* The current K10 Doserless model will be phased out.
* Montse promised to keep me informed so any details I receive I'll keep HB updated as they come in. She just added me to Skype, so I'm confident we'll be hearing something soon. :fingers crossed:


Compak will debut the K10 Fresh with several prototypes at the Coffee Culture event June 23-25 in London inline with the WBC championships.

She expected a hard launch in September of this year, after the summer break. As you know, us euros like to disappear for 4-5 weeks every summer and go on vacation. . . .

lolgun wrote:Introducing the K10 Fresh!

OMG epic. Well I will have to hold my horses and wait for this baby. Thanks for the tip mate.

Cheers Aidan.

another_jim wrote:I'm sorry to hear the Compak is another conversion. I hope the marketplace ends up making the Nino and Mahlkoenig, which are designed ground up to be doserless, a success, and sends all these elephant and aardvark grinders to oblivion.

Hi Jim, this is really interesting. I can see how the Vario and the K30 seem like ground up doserless machines, but why is the Nino so structurally different than the "elephant and aardvark" conversions? It isn't obvious to me just looking at pictures of the outside (and not schematics of the inside).