shadowfax wrote:Anyone want to take those odds?

Tempting, very tempting... but <thump> I'm throwing in the towel for now. I thought it would be possible to have civil discussion on this subject, but I was quickly proven wrong. However, I still see this as one of the more interesting and germane grinder-related topics on the boards, and look forward to the results of your taste tests.

"Disdainful certainty" in various forms certainly seems to have done the rounds and in several recent threads, not just the single-shot ones.

As has caustic sarcasm.

I think many of us have found it a dispiriting and disappointing experience.

If we can stop pointing fingers long enough to grab a mirror, maybe we will all learn something from it and the forum will benefit.

With regards from the peanut gallery

Mike

i keep a few shots worth of beans in the hopper of my kony e

for those not in the single dose camp, how much coffee should be kept in the hopper of these grinders

shadowfax wrote:+1 on this whole issue. I am happy to theorize and express concerns about these things, but at this point I think a VERY, VERY, VERY dead horse is getting beaten, and I suggest we all take a breather. I chatted with Jon this afternoon, and we're planning a blind test redux on single dosing, this time with a coffee Jon is most definitely more comfortable with. I look forward to participating in that test and also to reading what Mike finds on the 2 Ninos. My prediction: Our Roburs come up in a stalemate and Mike's single-dosing Nino loses to the full-hopper Nino; we end up with 2 conclusively inconclusive tests on the topic, and everyone goes back to doing whatever they like best. Anyone want to take those odds?

Whew. I can't wait for the test results. Few things smell as bad as dead horse flesh that's been beaten as long as these threads People sure can get testy around the holidays...

One suggestion: After you've run the test with Jon's preferred coffee, try it again with another acceptable coffee that has significantly different roast characteristics or number of days past roast. Or, if you do the first test with an SO, try it again with a blend. I've wondered if the nature of the bean, especially how it responds to grinding, can influence the pour and taste results of single-dosing vs loaded hopper dosing, perhaps accounting for some of the differences in opinion expressed in these threads.

michael wrote:i keep a few shots worth of beans in the hopper of my kony e

for those not in the single dose camp, how much coffee should be kept in the hopper of these grinders

On the MXK, similar to the Kony, 50g coffee plus 110g to 150g weight in the 2" internal diameter mini hopper yields good results. When using the soda can, around 100g plus 150g weight.

whats the soda can

how much coffee in the hopper do you need to not use the weight

Peppersass wrote:Whew. I can't wait for the test results.

I am doing this out of my own inquisitiveness to see if I can convince myself one way or another.
(It is NOT an attempt to convince anyone else)

Peppersass wrote:One suggestion: After you've run the test with Jon's preferred coffee, try it again with another acceptable coffee that has significantly different roast characteristics or number of days past roast.

We'll be lucky if we conduct one reasonably successful trial in a day. The best we could possibly hope for is to either show a marked preference for A vs. B or to successfully show a null result.

Dick,

Jon is alluding to taste fatigue (and indeed a bit of sour stomach) that we encounter after sampling dial-in shots and then going through the blind testing. It's been our experience that more than one test in a half day is not feasible, given the way we work, and I don't think we can commit to blocking out the kind of time for a second battery in the afternoon in any case. We'll see how it goes, but it's highly doubtful. We're going to be blind-testing some aspect of pressure profiling on a different day next week as well; this is enough blind testing for me for awhile!

+1 on what Jon wrote

My 2nd Nino arrived yesterday, so I may be in a position to help create some harmony and consensus over this soon.

I'll need other testers for this and a protocol that as many people here on HB as possible agree as solid.

Again the idea is not to convince anyone else but to be able to share something from this that is more than anecdotal evidence and give the community here a more objective basis to discuss the pros and cons of single-shot dosing. And of course I may give everyone the entertainment value of having to eat my own words.

I won't run the test immediately because I think I need a few weeks to season/run in the new grinder until it's performing consistently and as close to the first one I bought as possible.

I'd like to involve a few more people too, and for two reasons: easier to test blind, more input and observations. So anyone interested who lives in or is going to be in the UK who wants to participate please contact me. If one of these people has a Super Jolly with around 1 year's domestic use under its belt we could perhaps play with those too, depending on the time and stamina of all involved.

I think it may be essential to use a machine that manages its own heat stability in a way everyone finds acceptably consistent. I use lever machines. My 2009 Cremina is a great machine and I can manage the temperature profile to my own satisfaction for quite a number of shots, but it's no GS3. Another alternative for temperature profile is for me to PID one of my Caravels. But then, the repeatability of pressure profile could be an issue with either of these machines. The Elektra gives a constant pressure profile, but is less stable on the temperature front and also gives less shots before a refill is required.

So maybe we need another machine... I would be happy to drag my grinders to the house of someone with a machine that is recognised as offering repeatable pressure and temperature profiles. Alternatively I may try and arrange something in a coffee showroom. I'll also try and involve a roaster.

Which would people find most valid/valuable?

Overall I am suggesting:

1) Same grinders with "seasoned" burrs in both
2) Temperature stable machine with repeatable pressure profile of agreed validity
3) Blind test involving maybe 2 to 4 people. Everyone can be anonymous in the test result, but I will certainly reveal if I make a fool of myself and do not come to the same conclusions this time round
4) Test at 3 doses adapted to suit bean: classic Italian single, then double and then high-dosed New World double, maybe even a double ristretto
5) SO bean of some complexity also suitable for range in (4). I suggest it will be valuable to send 250g of this out to all testers a week before the test so we can become familiar with the nuances of the bean on their own gear. I do think there is some validity in the observations that come out of the audio industry. Maybe two SO beans to get the range in (4) (max 2 beans, I'd say and that's probably one too many)
6) Spittoon to avoid caffeination clouding judgment
7) ?

Seven is a question because I'd like to hear how people feel about this: would it be best to use exactly the same doses as a compromise for both grinders, or should we use the doses that give the best possible results for each individual grinder used in its different mode - assuming these turn out to be different?

People might also want to comment on whether to extract to blonding (noting each shot volume) or for constant volume.

Can anyone find any holes here or anything they would like to see improved?

I'd very much appreciate your input Jon and Nicholas since I think it might make things even more interesting if we adopt the same protocols.

Cheers

Mike

Here's some advice from someone who has attempted this:

You want to test the *grinders* so you'll want to do your best remove the other variables. Here are some things I thought of that may be helpful:

1. No lever machines.
2. If you use an HX, it must have a well experienced operator who has done Scace (or similar) profiling to prove out their routine and machine so that brewing temps can be held in a tight window. Obviously a DB is better for this type of test
3. Pick a single bean or a very simple blend.
4. Do not attempt multiple dose ranges, you'll be doing well if you can get a valid result with just one
5. Pick a dose FIRST and then dial in the grind on both grinders (i.e. do not dial one grinder by taste first, pick a nuetral dose and dial in both grinders for correct flow). I would suggest a "standard" double.
6. After a few successful pairs evaluated you might want to switch the grinders and re-dial them in
7. Spitoons are fine but irrelevant. It's not caffiene that stops you, it is tastebud fatigue

Now here are some tips:
1. Have some sparkling water and scones or tea biscuits (etc.) to help clear palates. Avoid heavy foods and drinks and avoid anything with strong flavors (other than the espresso of course)
2. I think it's best to have one operator and two blind tasters who don't mind sharing a cup. This allows the shots to be pulled using a bottomless portafilter so the barista can see if he's getting optimum extractions for every shot and every pair.
3. You'll have more fun if you are a taster and not the barista.
4. Be prepared to pull MANY MANY shots. Seriously. Have a few pound of the coffee on hand.
5. The tasters don't need to be familiar with the bean to start because you certainly will be by the time you've sampled a dozen shots or so.
6. Use 2 identical cups that are CLEARLY marked "A" and "B" (or red and green, whatever). This is more important than you can possibly imagine

The barista should keep notes about the dose weights and shot timing and volume, but should mix up the basket pairs before pulling them so the test is double-blind. We marked the baskets discreetly under the rim to differentiate after each pair was already tasted.

It may be a challenge for your barista to learn to use the Nino as a single-dose grinder (It would be for me and I have a well-practiced routine already), so it might be a good idea to loan a Nino and let them play with it for a few days as a single-dose grinder. The Nino has features that would seem to make it *very* difficult to use for single-dose grinding as Nicholas has observed. It may be necessary to grind extra for each shot and discard the first grams each time. You could do the same with the loaded grinder so all's fair.


Above all - have fun and enjoy the day.