Almico wrote:Firstly, tell that the Doug of Orphan Espresso. The Pharos is pretty well accepted as a world class hand grinder. Slop is engineered into the mechanism. Or more specifically, not engineered out.

I think "world class hand grinder" is widely open to interpretation and challenge given how subjective grinder "ratings" are. Sette being case in point.

Almico wrote: And I said a gap between the burrs introduces slop unless there is something mechanically holding them apart. What is not true about that?

Burr gap and slop have nothing to do with each other. Burr gap is not a cause of the slop. Slop or movement of either burr up or down is result of engineering choices not a burr gap.

There is some terminology misunderstanding here.

Vertical burr movement (or slop as mentioned) is probably okay because beans will always push down when grinding.

Horizontal burr movement (aka wobble, the red arrows) is less than okay because beans might not induce the same force around the burrs circumference when grinding.

Horizontal burr movement is typically kept in checked by fixing the shaft/axle, which then fix the inner burr from wobbling. In Pharos or Lido, the shaft is fixed by the two bronze bearings (both above and below). So the tolerance of the shaft (OD) to the bearing hole size(ID) will dictate the wobble. If you have have mismatch of the OD & ID, or wear & tear in the bronze bearings, there will be horizontal wobble.

At this stage, I can't see clearly what structural support/strategy was used to fix the Sette inner burr. If it's just by thread system alone, threads tend to have high tolerance to it so visible slop is not unexpected. Spring can be used in this case to remove/minimize the slop.

Almico wrote:Firstly, tell that the Doug of Orphan Espresso. The Pharos is pretty well accepted as a world class hand grinder. Slop is engineered into the mechanism. Or more specifically, not engineered out.

And I said a gap between the burrs introduces slop unless there is something mechanically holding them apart. What is not true about that?

AIan - I don't think you understand what I meant by "slop". The pharos has an upper and lower bearing in which the shaft fit snugly and has nearly NO lateral movement. Yes, you can clack the burrs by pulling up to close the gap, but that is NOT the same as side to side slop. If Doug had put a 3/8" shaft in 1/2" ID bearings then his would also have slop. A hario has slop because the inner burr is floating and self-centering with no lower bearing. What the op showed was not up/dn movement, it was side to side movement. The 2 are *very* different to my mind. Perhaps his just needs dissasembly/cleaning/reassembly.

I was going to talk about the "floating burr" design vs wobble but Samuel beat me to it. I would just add that this is more of an angled wobble, not simply red or blue. Huge difference as I understand it. Before I comment to almico let me point out again, so far this is the only unit anyone has specifically reported this in, on the very first set of deliveries, so let's not get to broad with our assumptions folks. If it was common I am sure others would be agreeing.

Almico wrote:I don't think anything is broken, but if it were mine, I would remove the burr assembly:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEsGof65vdU

and make sure the cone burr is tight in the cone burr holder:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sBpJcsF7-4

Mine does not bind at all at the lowest setting, so something is surely amiss.

I do get a little "slop" as you call it at the coarser settings, but I also get the same "slop" on my Pharos and Lido 2 grinders. When you coarsen the grind setting on a conical grinder, your inherently create a gap between the burrs. Unless there is something mechanically (springs) holding them apart, you will have slop. The beans force the burrs apart and hold them there during the grind process.

I did remove the burr assembly, clean everything carefully and check all thre screws, there was a slight bit of room to turn the Phillips head screws but they are probably slightly out of spec now and overtightened. No improvement. You mention getting "some slop" which is a bit vague for me and could mean anything.

Also, binding could easily be caused by it being installed to grind in finer espresso ranges, I can easily get a 50secomd shot on my Pavoni as is and it flows well, without going into the binding range. Of course, It is also possible the bonding is related to the problem, hence my mentioning it. Hardly conclusive at this time.

samuellaw178 wrote: Vertical burr movement (or slop as mentioned) is probably okay because beans will always push down when grinding.

I don't think that's OK at all. Its not as bad as horizontal wobble but it introduces inconsistent grinding in my mind. Coffee gets crushed and goes through the burrs but the pressure is not consistent and burr will move slightly up and down during grinding vibrating. This introduces inconsistent ground coffee particles...

I completely agree: "it introduces inconsistent grinding in your mind".

In my opinion Which is supported by all top of the line grinders and none of them are having anything floating...

Sorry I introduced the term 'slop' - that was sloppy on my part:) -should have kept using the term wobble. Hope the op gets it fixed.

samuellaw178 wrote:
At this stage, I can't see clearly what structural support/strategy was used to fix the Sette inner burr. If it's just by thread system alone, threads tend to have high tolerance to it so visible slop is not unexpected. Spring can be used in this case to remove/minimize the slop.

While I was falling asleep all my daughters crowded into the bed (4 and 6) at my wife's request...ugh... and so here I am downstairs taking pictures of the Sette.


The main locking mechanism appears to be mimicking or lifted off a camera lens. If you look closely behind the stepped adjustment platform you will see the rails that have to be lined up to lock in place.


closer


This is the grinder mating side. looks just like a camera lens.


This little ball or sheath appears to have a spring behind it.


There are two of them


when you install it there is a flat section that aligns on the very top of a drop. This is very similar to the stepped rink on my MDF, except that the stepped ring is sloped. As you grind finer the whole assembly turns up into the grinder, bringing the burr closer, but the stepped ring is sloped so that it appears to offset the distance and keep a consistent spring pressure across the whole grind spectrum.


Not the best picture, it is much more obvious in person, but this is the slope that goes down until you hit the stop wall. It is the same on both ends.


from the top.

Now, all of that actually appears to be quite solid. What I do not understand is how the fine adjustment ring works. When you unscrew the fine adjustment ring this is what you get



This has two parts. The interior part moves freely and wobbles like crazy out of the assembly, but it is held in place by the veins and that appears t hold the interior quite firmly. The wobble appears to be coming from the exterior black portion, where the fine adjustment ring screws in. I might be able to fully disassemble it later and see how it works, but the black piece can jiggle around in place, and I do not understand what mechanism is being used to allow it to move the burr without introducing wobble. I also do not see how that is related to the exaggerated differences as grind gets coarser. The best theory I have is that the slope is not a perfect offset to the change in rail height of the locking mechanism, and that at coarse grinds the spring pressure is either different on one side or decreasing. Maybe just a bad spring, though they both feel the same to my finger pressure. i suspect the fine adjustment play is mostly irrelevant, but was what caused me to notice the wobble in the first place.

Thanks Brian, great pictures! If I were you I would be very happy to geek out with a new coffee toy undisturbed, rather than being in the bed (sleeping is overrated anyway)

The metal spring-ball mechanism seemed to be designed to hold the grind setting, rather than to hold the entire carrier completely rigid. So the spring wouldn't be very strong. But in this case, it does not appear to be the weak link here.

From your description, your wobble most likely came from the inner burr and its fine adjustment mechanism. Maybe something is not tight there and popping it open to check sounds logical. But it might be better to wait for Baratza's response before attempting that (warranty concern)

When you hold the upper part of the inner burr carrier, and wiggle the bottom part (the fine adjustment ring) - does the burr wiggle?

day wrote: I also do not see how that is related to the exaggerated differences as grind gets coarser.

Maybe when the burrs are closer, the wobble is less perceptible due to less travel distance (and vice versa)?