Baratza blogs about steel vs. ceramic Forté burrs for espresso - Page 3

Grinders are one of the keys to exceptional espresso. Discuss them here.
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canuckcoffeeguy
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#21: Post by canuckcoffeeguy »

weebit_nutty wrote:No. Steel burrs on the Forte are meant for drip brew. My understanding (and anyone knowledgeable please correct me if I'm wrong) is that steel burrs do more cutting whereas ceramic burrs do more breaking, which produces more fines. Fines are critical to create the necessary flow restriction needed for espresso brewing. The distribution of grind sizes (in a dose, the grind profile) between different burr sets/grinders make one optimal for one brew method over the other, which is why steel burrs dictate the Forte BG model while ceramic burrs dictate the Forte AP model.
I'm not sure this is entirely accurate. The EK43, which is touted for lighter roasts to achieve higher extractions, actually produces MORE fines. But the EK43's particle distribution is still more unimodal than with conventional espresso grinders. Matt Perger confirmed the more fines, but more unimodal phenomenon on a Tamper Tantrum podcast.

Bimodal grinds work well for more traditional medium or darker roasts that are easier to extract. But the increased interest in lighter roasts, and pursuit of higher extractions, has people favouring the unimodal grinders. Hence the new Mahlkonig Peak, which packs the EK43 grind quality into a user friendly K30 body.

Baratza says the metal Forte burrs show promise with lighter roasts for espresso. I think this is probably in line with what people are seeing with EK43s and big Compaks for espresso. The Vario with metal burrs is a different story, since it doesn't have the same robust housing and adjustment mechanism as the Forté.

So it appears that it's not black and white that metal is for brew only, and ceramic all purpose. It also depends on whether it's a Forté or Vario, and if you're grinding light roasted SOs, or more traditional roasts.

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weebit_nutty
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#22: Post by weebit_nutty »

I gone through 15lbs worth of roasts on my Forte with the steel burrs installed (shortly after I purchased the AP). In the last couple of weeks I switched back to the AP's original ceramic burrs to revisit espresso brewing paired with this grinder. As a consequence I have also been using it for drip brewing and have found an immediate difference in the cup. It turns out the added fines slowed down the brewing time. So I tried something... an experiment actually. I wanted to find out if I can compensate with the slower brew time in 3 ways: 1. Dose lower. 2. Increase the grind size slightly. 3. Use larger doses of water each pour.

I found the 2nd and 3rd methods changed the cup for the better. Dosing lower did not change the timing much but the extraction was weaker. Increasing the grind size slightly actually had the best change to the cup. It restored my brewing time and the cup was closer to that of the steel burrs results (I use the same roast from the same batch--BB's Three Africans). Lastly when I tried pouring faster, it also increased the flow and I found the cup pretty much the same as I remembered using steel burrs.

So I might not be switching back to my steel burrs ever again, however likely I will again in a few weeks once I get the R120.
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baldheadracing (original poster)
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#23: Post by baldheadracing (original poster) »

The R120 should be a better brew grinder than the Forté.

BTW, I thought that you wanted to get rid of stuff, not get more :wink:
-"Good quality brings happiness as you use it" - Nobuho Miya, Kamasada

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weebit_nutty
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#24: Post by weebit_nutty »

Afflicted with upgraditis. Too much disposable income. Lack of willpower. Pick one lol
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coffeemmichael
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#25: Post by coffeemmichael »

Forgot to give an update. I'm having a very difficult time extracting non-sour espresso on light roasts, using a 1:2 ratio and nearly choking the group still results in lemon juice. Longer shots are fine, but 1:2 isn't doable if you'd like to preserve your taste buds. Ordering a set of ceramics to compare with.

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keno
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#26: Post by keno »

weebit_nutty wrote:Afflicted with upgraditis. Too much disposable income. Lack of willpower. Pick one lol
His username says it all! :lol:

spearfish25
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#27: Post by spearfish25 »

coffeemmichael wrote:Forgot to give an update. I'm having a very difficult time extracting non-sour espresso on light roasts, using a 1:2 ratio and nearly choking the group still results in lemon juice. Longer shots are fine, but 1:2 isn't doable if you'd like to preserve your taste buds. Ordering a set of ceramics to compare with.
Increase your temp a degree or two at a time. Sourness will vanish.
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coffeemmichael
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#28: Post by coffeemmichael »

Did that too. Also tried underdosing the basket in increments of a gram until I hit 14.

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canuckcoffeeguy
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#29: Post by canuckcoffeeguy replying to coffeemmichael »

Ok give this a try and see what happens. I just pulled a light roast Ethiopian Konga with very good results. I followed some counterintuitive advice from the roaster and it worked.

He told me to pull it short and use an unconventionallly low temperature. I'm talking 185F or even as low as 180F. And between ristretto and normale in 25 seconds or so.

So I just pulled one shot so far, and I only used my Vario since my K10PB is currently dialed in for another bean.

So the Konga I just pulled was 18.7g in with 33g out around 185F in 23 seconds counting from first drip. I'm using an E61 HX with Erics thermometer and an 18g VST. Next time I'll aim for more ristretto ratio. Bottom line, it wasn't thin, had good body and sweetness, and only minor, mild sourness. Not nearly as much sourness as I expected. Was one of the better light roast SOs I've pulled at home. And I've only pulled one shot so far
Still room to tweak.

But maybe the low temp is key here. I know temps below 190F can work nicely with Aeropress and EspressoForge.

coffeemmichael
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#30: Post by coffeemmichael »

canuckcoffeeguy wrote:Ok give this a try and see what happens. I just pulled a light roast Ethiopian Konga with very good results. I followed some counterintuitive advice from the roaster and it worked.
I totally forgot to add context to my original post, it was two different washed ethiopians I was having difficulty with. I'll order some more and try your advice.

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