Worth PID'ing the Quickmill Alexia? was "Big Upgrade time"

[CyclingCraig]

Hi all;

WOW! I went from looking for a new machine to realizing how much I was missing out on, once I found this site.

SOOO much great info and people here.

After much reading and searching I think I came up with my choice, an Anita (Getting the Mazz Mini too).

Now my questions. I am REALLY leaning toward the Quick Mill Anita from ChrisCoffee. But I wanted to know how important is getting it fitted with a PID? (You can order it from him with it preinstalled correct?)

Thanks all
-Craig

[HB]

I think you mean the Alexia (single boiler, optional PID), not the Anita (HX), right?

[lparsons21]

Could be the Anita. Dave at Hitechespresso or some such is doing HXs now.

Personally after reading till my eyes fogged over, I can't figure out how a PID is a big deal on an HX.

[miKe mcKoffee]

Personally after reading till my eyes fogged over, I can't figure out how a PID is a big deal on an HX.

IMO it's not. My Barksdale pstat has 0.05bar band, about equivalent to 1C variance. However, a PID would likely have less failure potential than a pstat.

[mattwells]

IMO it's not.

+1 - all it does is let me fuss way too much about temp, and a Temp that didn't really matter. The only advantage I see is that it lets you change the temp quickly and easily, but on an HX you don't really HAVE to do it that often (with a PID I sure felt like I did, though).

[cannonfodder]

I had this same discussion a year ago at Barry's holiday party. He (I believe) had done some testing on PID and HX machines. While with double boiler (or single) you can get a nice flat temperature profile, with the HX you get a jagged saw tooth profile.

Most mods use a PID on the brew boiler and retain a Pstat on the steam boiler. When you crack the steam valve, a pressurestat will switch on and start heating the boiler water. This keeps your steam running while venting said steam. With a PID, it takes a few moments before your boiler temperature drops enough for the PID to switch on. By then your steam has piddled out and the heating element has to play catch-up, hence the up and down temperature profile using the PID on a steam boiler.

A fact I can attest to with my Gaggia Factory lever and my less than PID accurate digital thermostat. When I open the steam wand my pressure steadily drops from 1 bar to .6 before the boiler water cools enough to trip the heating element. I work around it by opening the wand and venting for 15 or so seconds so the heater engages. I give it a couple of seconds to catch up then start my steaming.

A PID on a HX machine is more for bragging rights than a functional upgrade unless your machine burns up Pstats at a fast pace. Then the PID may have a functional purpose.

Just my two cents. Skip the PID and use the money to purchase a truckload of good coffee and the required accessories, or toss it in the pot for a better grinder (like a Kony), not that there is anything wrong with a Mini. Kudos for realizing that the grinder is more important than the machine.

Now if you are looking at the single boiler machine, go for it.

[CyclingCraig]

Actually I DID! mean the Anita.. I am going for the HX machine (Want good performance for milk drinks).

Being a newbie to the "REAL" machines I didn't know that the PID is not necessary on a HX machine.

So how (On the Anita) do I know my Brew Temp and how would I adjust it?

Thanks again.. Can't get over how fast everyone replied! Great SITE!

-Craig

[cannonfodder]

I think I need to point out that we are discussing two different things. Boiler temperature (which is what the PID adjusts) and brew temperature which is adjusted by the length of the cooling flush (but is affected by the boiler temperature).

I think you should take a step back and read Dan's wonderful article How I Stopped Worrying and Learned to Love HXs and review the Good all round explanation of PID stuff threads.

It sounds like you are unsure of the technology and purchasing it simply because it is available.

[CyclingCraig]

Thanks cannonfodder.

I have read those links before, but RE-read them again and now I understand better. I also knew about the cooling flush. (Not that it helps me make better espresso, but my previous job I designed steam power plants(Mech Eng), so I am VERY familiar with the properties of steam and boilers )

Now my question is, HOW do I measure my brew temp? I understand when flushing to watch and listing for water flashing to steam and wait for just the beginning of a nice water flow, but that doesn't tell me the temperature?

Thanks again and sorry for the stupid questions

-Craig

[jesawdy]

Now my question is, HOW do I measure my brew temp? I understand when flushing to watch and listing for water flashing to steam and wait for just the beginning of a nice water flow, but that doesn't tell me the temperature?

Thanks again and sorry for the stupid questions

No stupid questions here.

Four options:

1 - Forget reading temp, observe water dance, and flush volumes, lock in coffee at different recover times and pull... Let taste be your judge.

2 - You can get erics's E61 thermocouple adapter, a thermocouple, and a meter (or inexpensive PID to use as a temp readout). The adapter replaces an allen bolt in the e61 grouphead and the thermocouple reads the temp in the brew water path.

3 - You can get a Scace thermofilter device, and a meter to read temps in a naked portafilter (no coffee, just the thermofilter) and experiment.

4- You can put a thermocouple over the basket lip and onto the top of your coffee puck, and use a meter to read the temp.

IMO, there are compromises in each setup, but for actually knowing the brew water temp (or some relative measurement that you can correspond to taste) I would lean towards erics's adapter. It is real-time and everytime, no fiddling after you get it setup, and can be relatively inexpensive in the grand scheme of things

(NOTE- I don't have any of the above (yet, most likely), I just obsess over learning this stuff)

[CyclingCraig]

Thanks jesawdy

I JUST found the Posts on Erics adapter and read them..

NOWWWW.. I understand better

So it seems like I shouldn't worry so much about the EXACT temp, just trust the cooling flush and taste? And having something to read the brew temp (Like Eric's adapter) isn't necessary, and knowing the brew temp isn't THAT important for my stage of learning??

It is going to be a big learning curve for me anyway, and I am trying to NOT overcomplicate things. It's going to be hard enough learning the new machine and pulling a decent shot in the first place.

Thanks again, we'll see what happens.
-Craig

[miKe mcKoffee]

Thanks cannonfodder.

I have read those links before, but RE-read them again and now I understand better. I also knew about the cooling flush. (Not that it helps me make better espresso, but my previous job I designed steam power plants(Mech Eng), so I am VERY familiar with the properties of steam and boilers )

Now my question is, HOW do I measure my brew temp? I understand when flushing to watch and listing for water flashing to steam and wait for just the beginning of a nice water flow, but that doesn't tell me the temperature?

Thanks again and sorry for the stupid questions

-Craig

The end of flash is ~206f. Continuing flushing beyond flash lowers temp ~1f each one one-thousand count. There are two basic methods of HX temp surfing: flush beyond desired shot temp & wait for temp to recover or flush to desired temp and immediately pull (after initial cooling flush). My understanding different machines work better different surf methods. The Bricoletta works either, though recovers very fast so I prefer and use the flush to flash, keep flushing one one-thousand counts beyond end of flash until desired temp and immediately pull shot. This method does require briefly setting the already built PF aside while flash-flush-n-go. So it's cooling/stabilizing flush through PF while grinding, dry and build PF, set built PF gently down, flush beyond flash to desired temp and immediately lock and pull. Though you can hold the PF in one hand while operating the machine for flush/flash with the other. Hmmm, why haven't I been doing that?! Now I remember! The top of my Bric' is covered with a bunch of demi's, timer, pewter dragon drinking coffee and four tampers and the various stuff up there tends to rattle a bit while pump engaged which distracts from hearing flash dance so I use one hand to hold the junk still...

[cannonfodder]

I went by taste. I did cobble together a thermometer in the group similar to Eric's adapter but it was not as accurate. In the end, I used Dan's guide to get started and adjusted by taste. I just got my first Fluke with a TC a few weeks ago. When I used it to check my temperatures based on my intuition, low and behold my taste buds were right on the money and I could hit within 1 degree of my target every time.

If you get very dark brown, almost black, crema around the perimeter of the cup and the shots tastes like burnt green beans, it was too hot. Flush another second longer or lower your recovery time until that goes away. If you pull a shot and the crema is pale tan and when you take a sip you want to pucker or shake your head because it is tart/sour, than you flushed too much or did not allow enough rebound time. Flush less or allow a longer recovery, again increment in one second intervals until the sour goes away.

The key is to pay attention to your timing. You want the flush and rebound to be the same every time. I used the second hand on my watch for a while. Now days, I know when to stop and when to brew as more intuition. You just know when it is time, but it also took a couple of years to get to that point. When you hit the sweet spot you will know.

If you get an E61 machine, Eric's setup would work best. The Thermofilter works by itself. With Eric's adapter you can pull shots, watch the temperature and correlate a taste to temperature to time. Eventually, you can do away with the adaptor and just use time as your guide. After some practice you can even do away with the watch and work on intuition.

[HB]

So it seems like I shouldn't worry so much about the EXACT temp, just trust the cooling flush and taste? And having something to read the brew temp (Like Eric's adapter) isn't necessary, and knowing the brew temp isn't THAT important for my stage of learning??

At this stage of your learning, being able to reproduce the same brew temperature and correlating it with taste is important, not the particular number. Eric's adapter and double boilers deliver that capability. However, at the level of equipment we're discussing, temperature management isn't the most vexing problem, the distribution, dosage, and diagnosing extraction problems are. But as engineering types, I think we're naturally drawn to measures that are easily quantifiable (brew temperature, brew pressure). On that front, Andy's Brewing ratios for espresso beverages is an interesting development for those wishing to meaningfully compare results.

Eventually, you can do away with the adaptor and just use time as your guide. After some practice you can even do away with the watch and work on intuition.

I've gotten lazy and do both. I use Eric's adapter to nail the flush amount easily, but still rely on a little "Zen" to tweak the temperature to my liking. That comes after months of use of the same gear. Of course, the small degrees of change are only noticeable if the rest of the routine is consistent (dosage, distribution, tamp). For example, an unintentional dosage variance of one gram shot-to-shot could overwhelm the change introduced by an intentional on-the-fly 2F degree temperature adjustment. You may well get a good shot in both cases, but you wouldn't know why.

[jesawdy]

So it seems like I shouldn't worry so much about the EXACT temp, just trust the cooling flush and taste? And having something to read the brew temp (Like Eric's adapter) isn't necessary, and knowing the brew temp isn't THAT important for my stage of learning??

Well, if you're inclined to do these sort of things (like obsess over variables and measurements), and I am guessing you are (we are engineers after all, my schooling is chem eng ) I don't know that I would hesitate to move forward with getting the parts needed to use erics's adapter. That's your call.

It certainly will help you be more consistent, and eliminate or control a few variables. Just don't get locked into, "well it says that this coffee is best at 201.5F brew temp, 18g dose and 45ml volume in 28 seconds, I'm gonna do that!" Sure that may taste great to that roaster on HIS machine with HIS tastebuds using HIS espresso shot preparation methods. You can't replicate all that.. . but they have given you a starting point. You may find you enjoy that coffee (or discover a totally different taste profile) with a complete different set of conditions. That is why I said to let taste be your judge.

Does that make sense?

Also, I want to throw out there that it is going to take a good bit of time to become consistent in your shot building techniques.... THAT is the thing you'll want to concentrate on the most when you first get started. To that end, you may like to get a gram scale (0.1g scales can be had on ebay for about $14 shipped), a naked portafilter (if you buy from Chris I would recommend the Rancilio cut one), maybe a ridgeless basket (most people seem to migrate there and you can build your shot out of the PF if you like), and a quality tamper. If you plan on milk drinks, a 12 oz. pitcher and a thermometer to round it out (you'll learn to ditch the thermometer over time).

(EDIT - We seem to be a helpful bunch today.... I think we are all saying about the same thing.)

[CyclingCraig]

we are engineers after all, my schooling is chem eng

Niceeee!!!..More Engineers . Yeah I'm no longer an engineer by profession, computers now, so I don't get to play with Combustion Turbines and Huge Steam Turbines anymore, my gadget obsession has to come from somewhere, might as well be High end espresso right?

maybe a ridgeless basket

What's a ridgeless basket?

Thanks again to everyone here, people are super helpful. BOY!!! this is fun getting new toys

I just like and want really good equipment that I can grow into and enjoy.

-Craig

[jesawdy]

What's a ridgeless basket?

A ridgeless basket has smooth or straight sides with no bump. The bump can be an "innie" or an "outie" and it is used to hold the basket in the portafilter by the retaining spring. Now, it may be a lot of hype but some folks claim it tamps better, some folks claim the ridge gets in the way of your tamper, ad nauseum. But one thing you can do for sure is build the shot in the basket outside of the portafilter and slide the basket in the portafilter without the 'snap' of the spring disturbing the puck. It is also a lot easier to remove the basket from the PF.

Here is a link to some info here. (Dan, do we have a good basket thread we could get in the Stickie - FAQs and Favorites?)

EDIT - Here is another good thread on baskets, What should my inventory of portafilter baskets include?

[cannonfodder]

Gaggia Achille ridgeless single, Achille ridgeless double, Faema ridged double, La Marzocco ridgeless double and a 52mm La Pavoni ridgeless.

The ridge snaps over (or into) the portafilter retaining spring to keep it from falling out when you smack the portafilter on the knock box.

[Kristi]

briefly back to the PID question - I PID'ed my HX, and then took it off - steaming was much better without it, as someone mentioned above.

[timo888]

So it seems like I shouldn't worry so much about the EXACT temp, just trust the cooling flush and taste? And having something to read the brew temp (Like Eric's adapter) isn't necessary, and knowing the brew temp isn't THAT important for my stage of learning??

Craig,
I have a couple of vintage espresso-only (no steam) lever machines with flat temperature profiles, a Peppina and a Caravel. Both are open, i.e. unpressurized, kettles not boilers. There is a remarkable difference in the taste of the espresso extracted at, say, 195°F, 200°F, and 203°F. One of the most delicious shots I have ever tasted was pulled at 195°F.

I also use a Cremina, which is a pressurized boiler where there are three temperatures, for all intents and purposes, just like Goldilocks and the Three Bears: too cool, too hot, and just right. Just right is a range. Almost impossible to pull two shots in succession with the same temperature profile.

Pulling shots at the cooler end is challenging for any machine that uses one boiler for both steam and brewing. My advice would be to check out a double-boiler machine where you can set the brew temperature-- the kind where you give a short warming flush rather than copious cooling flushes.

Regards
Timo

P.S. Jim Schulman gets delicious espresso from an Elektra SemiAutomatica which has a parabolic temperature profile. So it might not be that a perfectly flat profile is the ideal. But keeping the temperature within a fairly narrow band is probably to be desired.