Worth PID'ing the Quickmill Alexia? was "Big Upgrade time" - Page 2

[nicfortin]

I'm fairly new to all that (3-4 months).
After reading this thread, could someone tell me why Hx machine are still on the market?
Let me explain, It looks so "complicated" to get a good temp. And why would we want to "surf temp" in 2006? Even after re-reading " How I Stopped Worrying and Learned to Love HXs" I still don't understand why would I spend 1000-1500 on a Hx. when we can buy a double boiler for not much more. (or get a good PIDed single boiler and a steaming device for cheaper)

Please "Hx lovers" forgive me I'm just trying to understand here... There might be something that I didn't get... yet.

nic

[jesawdy]

Please "Hx lovers" forgive me I'm just trying to understand here... There might be something that I didn't get... yet.

Answers....
A) It's not that complicated, all the questions, articles, discussion here might lead you to belive that it is... but is not a big deal, really.
B) You can hit ANY temp you like by varying cooling flush volumes/times. With a DB, even with 1F temp changes available, you're gonna wait.

[CyclingCraig]

First I want to thank all the people who responded to my previous post "Big Upgrade Time", it was really helpful.

Anyway, I just got off the phone with Chris' Coffee and placed my order ... YAYYYYY!!

I ordered up the Anita, but switched my Grinder choice to the MACAP M4 Stepless from the Mini Mazzer.

Also got some fun accessories like a new Tamper and a bottomless PF. I am SOOOO excited, but i know now the work begins in learning how to pull a good shot from my new beast.

Ordering from Chris' coffee was AWESOME, they were so helpful, answered the questions I had on the grinders and machines. No pressure, just spent all the time with me that I needed and then took my order. Since I am in New Jersey, she said I might even have my order TOMORROW!!.

Hope my choices live up to my expectations!

Thanks again
-Craig

[jmatt]

Congrats. Based on my recent esperience with Chriscoffee, you'll be very pleased. I'm sure everyone will validate your decision to go with a great grinder. I just got the MACAP M4 stepless from Chriscoffee as well. It works amazingly.

[timo888]

Answers....
A) It's not that complicated, all the questions, articles, discussion here might lead you to belive that it is... but is not a big deal, really.
B) You can hit ANY temp you like by varying colling flush volumes/times. With a DB, even 1F temp changes available, you're gonna wait.

When the price of an HX starts nipping at the heels of the price of the double boiler, it does makes sense to give the double boiler a close look and choose whatever machine best matches your particular espresso enthusiasms. You might like to stick with a favorite tried-and-true blend or you might like to change beans all the time, drink a lot of SO espresso, and experiment with temperature, savoring the sometimes profound differences a few degrees can make.

Let's say you have a Scace device and have correlated cooling flushes to brew temperature at your chosen p-stat setting and, if applicable, your chosen thermosyphon flow setting, and now you're good enough with your HX machine to bring it to 195°F with a generous cooling flush: one-mississippi, two-mississippi... six mississippi. You are a veritable Saint-Exupery with your machine and can pull shots and pour rosettas in the dark.

How do you know, after the first shot, precisely what flush, if any, will be required to pull another shot at 195°F? Or instead at 198°F? If you are always changing brew temperature to see how it affects the flavor of a particular bean/blend/roast, you would have had to do beaucoup experimentation with your Scace device before you could really claim inter-shot temperature accuracy using seat-of-the-pants flushing routines.

Also, if the HX machine rebounds quickly (as a result of the brew/steam optimization tradeoffs), you might not be able to get a standard 25-30 second shot where the intra-shot temperature remains within, say, a three-degree band of the target temperature, especially if your p-stat has been set to give you good steam performance and your thermosyphon flow is on the generous side.

It is not that single-boiler HX machines are incapable of being fine-tuned temperature-wise on the fly--but to get the knowledge of your machine that is needed for temperature ~accuracy will require a considerable commitment of time and energy.

Regards
Timo

[HB]

Also, if the HX machine rebounds quickly (as a result of the brew/steam optimization tradeoffs), you might not be able to get a standard 25-30 second shot where the intra-shot temperature remains within, say, a three-degree band of the target temperature, especially if your p-stat has been set to give you good steam performance and your thermosyphon flow is on the generous side.

All HXs have some degree of "hump" to their temperature profile. If you want a temperature profile that's as flat as your table, a dedicated boiler is the only logical choice. If you're satisfied with reproducibility, then an HX may meet your needs. The next question is how precisely you wish to reproduce the same brew temperature.

As a guesstimate, a new owner operating a stock HX will probably vary 3-4F degrees shot-to-shot following the water dance method. They might improve on their initial results slightly if they benefit from well-documented instructions, since optimal HX operation varies slightly from machine-to-machine. Someone with a few months experience would probably halve the variance because they would have a better feel for the machine's dynamics.

If 1.5-2F degrees of variance really bugs you, installing Eric's E61 thermocouple adapter will help. I documented my results back in July (link) and included outliers, but today I rarely miss the mark by more than 1F. Eric has a lower-cost alternative out for testing, the digital thermometer adaptor. It won't have the same sensitivity as the HTTC / Fluke 54-II combo, but it should remove a lot of the mystery from the process.

[timo888]

The thread relating to Eric's E61 temperature sensor adapter supports my point that it takes a significant amount of time and effort to get enough knowledge about one's HX machine to pull shots, in succession, at arbitrarily chosen temperatures.

In that thread you expressed a concern that things be made "idiot-proof" for "the fictitious Joe 'Sixpack' Barista" and suggested that the adapter, if turned into a product, should use a histogram, your Ready-Temp Readout, rather than a digital display:

While I am a gadget junkie, one of the most appealing aspects of the [HX Ready-Temp Readout] is its lack of digital readout. It encourages the barista to adjust temperature by taste, not a number.


...
The scales aren't necessarily linear. The red LEDs could be 216, 213, 210, yellow LEDs 209, 208, 207, and green LEDs 206.5, 206.0, 205, and 204.

If Joe Sixpack espresso enthusiast exists, I doubt Joe will want to do any temperature surfing with an E61 HX to begin with. Perhaps you have in mind a Joe MicroBrew-Sixpack Barista? Just as you think the display should be simplified for a class of consumer that won't have the time or inclination to interpret the digital results correctly (e.g. who would forget to factor in the temperature-attentuating effects of the heat sink) I too think there is a class of consumer who needs to be informed that it takes some effort to get good results from an HX, and that if they have the money to spend, a double-boiler might be a better option for them.

I like the idea of your RTR because I often prefer analog to digital readouts. But for an espresso enthusiast (as distinct from a trusty-espresso-blend/latte enthusiast) the prototypical RTR does makes some confining assumptions about bean and roast depth. The green range is much larger than is reflected by the LEDs --a low temp of 204 cuts off the entire lower end of the brew temp range. Moreover, what may be a yellow temperature for some roasts could be still in the green for a lighter roast, or possibly even in the red for a dark southern style roast. Or, what is green for some roasts could be sour for others. "Too cool" is not represented on the RTR (not a typical problem with HXes).

So, what if the readout looked something like this, with absolute temperature along the Y-axis, and roast-depth along the x-axis, with the darkest espresso roast on the left and the lightest roasts on the right. The range goes, from, say 190-210 . Red=too hot, green=good, cyan=too cool. The thin horizontal line shows the brew-water temperature and it cuts across all roast depths. As long as the barista knows the roast depth (we can assume this level of knowledge of Mr or Ms Sixpack, right?) the display will give a good indication of temperature relative to the roast.



Regards
Timo

[miKe mcKoffee]

The thread relating to Eric's E61 temperature sensor adapter supports my point that it takes a significant amount of time and effort to get enough knowledge about one's HX machine to pull shots, in succession, at arbitrarily chosen temperatures.

Agreed, can take considerable time and knowledge of ones HX machine to consistently hit desired shot temp.

However, once the time is invested it becomes easy and second nature. Any temp from 195f to 206f attainable on demand any number of shots any temp sequence. I could explain to anyone how to consistently hit desired shot temp on a Bricoletta within usually < +- 1f and they could then likely do it it consistently in a quite short amount of time.

Further however, still really not something expected to be done by the average Joe-Sixpack.

[HB]

I too think there is a class of consumer who needs to be informed that it takes some effort to get good results from an HX, and that if they have the money to spend, a double-boiler might be a better option for them.

I think there is a class of consumer who needs to be informed that it takes some effort to get good results from any espresso machine. As I've said before, temperature management is little challenge compared to mastering the correct dosage, grind, distribution, and diagnostic skills. Eric's adapter moves the difficulty of HX temperature management from modest to easy. If you have the extra cash and wish to eliminate one variable from the equation, a dedicated brew boiler moves the difficulty to "no brainer."

Further however, still really not something expected to be done by the average Joe-Sixpack.

The fictitious Joe Sixpack couldn't taste the difference between espresso brewed at 199F and 202F. And if Jane Sixpack added 12 ounces of milk and a packet of Splenda, anywhere in the range of 198F to 203F would be fine.

[miKe mcKoffee]

The fictitious Joe Sixpack couldn't taste the difference between espresso brewed at 199F and 202F. And if Jane Sixpack added 12 ounces of milk and a packet of Splenda, anywhere in the range of 198F to 203F would be fine.

100% agreed Said Joe and Jane wouldn't want to be bothered with such things as temp management, or fresh beans, or proper grind or dose or distribution... That's why *$ exists everywhere. And why home super-automatics have their place. Most people want quick and easy over quality, not just in espresso of course. How many Joe & Janes put 20 hours into their Christmas ham? Yet those same Joe & Janes who taste it rave, best they've ever tasted, then when they find out the time and effort involved decide it's not worth the effort for them to do...

[gscace]

briefly back to the PID question - I PID'ed my HX, and then took it off - steaming was much better without it, as someone mentioned above.

Prolly more a result of poorly tuned controller than anything else.

-Greg

[cannonfodder]

It all boils down to effort. How much time are you willing to invest in learning the art. Are you a color by the numbers person (PID double boiler) or an, 'i'll mix my own paint' (HX) user.

I can, with regular accuracy, hit the brew temperature I want with either of my HX machines be it back to back shots or the first shot of the day. It is something that time and familiarity with a machine teaches you. For ease of use, a double boiler is as easy as it can get. Just set it and go.

I have been putting a lot of thought into my next machine and debating the HX and double boiler question. Would I like a double boiler, yes, can I afford it, no. It is as simple as that. My next machine will be a long time kitchen fixture and a professional grade machine (Cimbali Jr, Elektra A3, LM GS3 or Synesso). In that class the options are limited and the prices wide. Before someone brings up the Brewtus, it is not in the same class as the above mentioned machines, sorry Brewtus lovers.

Now if the Cimbali and Elektra were within a couple hundred of the LM and Synesso, they would become a viable alternate.

As to flat as a pancake temperature profiles, I have been giving that some thought as well. I doubt anyone will argue that a flat profile is nice but given the top of puck to bottom of puck delta of several degrees, I am finding myself questioning the need for such a flat profile. You are not getting a .5c delta from the top to bottom of the puck so different layers are extracting at different temperatures. How does that play into the super flat and accurate profiles of the high end double boiler machines? To the uneducated (me), it would appear to be contradictory to current thought. Whether your brew water ranges .5c or 1.5c, what is the difference when you get a 4c variance from the top to bottom of the puck?

[jesawdy]

When the price of an HX starts nipping at the heels of the price of the double boiler, it does makes sense to give the double boiler a close look and choose whatever machine best matches your particular espresso enthusiasms. You might like to stick with a favorite tried-and-true blend or you might like to change beans all the time, drink a lot of SO espresso, and experiment with temperature, savoring the sometimes profound differences a few degrees can make.

<snip>

It is not that single-boiler HX machines are incapable of being fine-tuned temperature-wise on the fly--but to get the knowledge of your machine that is needed for temperature ~accuracy will require a considerable commitment of time and energy.

Agreed, if the price is close, something like the La Spaz Vivaldi or Brewtus may be a good choice.... I think it just depends on what you want to buy. I think to say that a double boiler in a home environment is VASTLY simpler isn't really looking at the whole process. If you want to explore extraction temps, you still have to change temps, flush, wait, build shot, brew, taste, repeat. You can do the same on the HX, just rather than change the brew temp setting, you change the flush volume and/or rebound time, all others steps are the same. Granted on a double boiler, you will "know" what temp setting to return to if you find something interesting.

Also agreed that in knowing true brew water temp, I certainly oversimplified the process in my answers above.

But, I will contend that there is no REAL reason to know true brew water temperature for the VAST majority of users out there. For the masses, flushing to end of the water dance to a steady stream of brew water, locking in a built shot PF, and pulling a shot on ANY blend is going to satisfy 98%+ users and they'll have a good shot. Will they have the best shot they can have, maybe, maybe not. The minority, or the ones who wish to play, will discover how to tweak their HX machine as readily as they could tweak a double boiler.

Now, if I had a coffee shop, and I used one blend, all day long, everyday, I can guarantee you that I would have a honkin' LM 3-group double boiler machine and forget about the cooling flush. No second guessing that.

[Dogshot]

It all boils down to effort. How much time are you willing to invest in learning the art. Are you a color by the numbers person (PID double boiler) or an, 'i'll mix my own paint' (HX) user.

Making espresso on a GS3 or whatever uber-machine still involves a tremendous amount of effort. My feeling is that the machine has little to do with the art, except in how hard you have to work around it to get at the art. And while I'm not sure about drawing inferences about personality traits from machine choices, I think machine choice does say something about a person's expectations of what performance means in an espresso machine, and therefore what machine attributes their prior experience leads them to focus on. When I wanted to upgrade from my Gaggia Classic, the things I perceived to be holding me back the most from learning about the taste of coffee were the lack of preinfusion and the temperature variation from the Gaggia (both within and between). Having never used an HX, the temp management process just seemed too close to what I had to do with my single boiler (non-HX), and I have little interest in learning how to work around my machine, and greater interest in learning how to become one with my coffee (although those two things will never be totally separate).

Dan wrote the following response to Mark Prince's comments on how to steam using the Silvia (borrowed from another thread):


Mark Prince wrote:
...hit the middle switch and open the steam knob... enough so that you see the middle light come on... start your grind, pack and prep... If you use a lighter roast, stop the flush as soon as this "flashing" stops. If you're using a darker roast, let it go for 2-6 seconds after the "gurgle" stops, then insert and brew. Midway through your shot, turn the steam switch on... As soon as it starts to "peter out", close the knob. Wait 20 seconds... let it go till the steam is dry, but weak. Close the knob. Wait 30 seconds - try again.

Dan's response:
What I found humorous wasn't Mark's advice - which is spot on - but the thought that many potential buyers are concerned about the complexity of managing the brew temperature of an HX espresso machine. Yet the "simplicity" of a single boiler like Silvia as described above invokes imagery of an arcane mating ritual more than espresso preparation.

To me, Dan's comment about the Silvia is exactly how I feel about the HX flush routine. I'm sure that an experienced Silvia user could counter Dan's comment with something like 'it sounds much more complicated than it really is'...it's all a matter of perspective.


Mark

[timo888]

As to flat as a pancake temperature profiles, I have been giving that some thought as well. I doubt anyone will argue that a flat profile is nice but given the top of puck to bottom of puck delta of several degrees, I am finding myself questioning the need for such a flat profile. You are not getting a .5c delta from the top to bottom of the puck so different layers are extracting at different temperatures. How does that play into the super flat and accurate profiles of the high end double boiler machines? To the uneducated (me), it would appear to be contradictory to current thought. Whether your brew water ranges .5c or 1.5c, what is the difference when you get a 4c variance from the top to bottom of the puck?

Two of my vintage machines offer a flat profile. I settle for three basic brewing temperatures: low, middle, and high.
I find very different qualities in the cup when I pull at 195, 200, and 203. So even if there are differences in temperature between the top of the puck and the bottom, those differences are a function of my choice of initial temperature and whether I've chosen to pull ristretto, normale, or lungo. The less water, the more extreme the difference in temperature between the top and bottom of the puck.

But I also believe you can get good espresso from a temperature profile of almost any shape as long as it does not spike into the bitter range for the bean/roast at hand and averages out to a temperature somewhere in the sweet range. I suspect you would not get the focusing of flavors (or the limiting of flavors) that you would get when the extraction occurs within a narrow temperature band. With a temperature profile that covers a wider range, you might get a symphony of flavors rather than a string quartet of flavors.

This doesn't relate to flat profiles or humped profiles but it is related to temperature: if I understood Illy correctly (and I would like to be corrected if not) there are foul-tasting substances which are released when the water temperature spikes. Even if the average temperature is ultimately within the sweet range, these foul tastes remain. On the other hand, there are substances that are perceived as sour when tasted at low temperatures, but when they are warmed up, the sourness goes away. For the latter, as long as the average temperature of the extraction is warm enough, you're spared the sourness; but once you release the ugly high-temperature tastes, the average temperature of the extraction doesn't matter. You cannot mitigate those high-temp tastes with lower temperatures elsewhere in the extraction.

Regards
Timo

[cannonfodder]

My quandary is not the difference in cup between the brew temperatures, there is most definitely a shift. If there is a range of temperature in the puck of 3 or 4 degrees, do you need a machine that produces a sub one degree temperature variance for the duration of the extraction when the largest variance is not in the machine but in the puck.

I am not refuting that a thermally stable machine is not desirable or necessary, but the need for a machine that produces half degree temperature variance. To my mind, that is like machining a bolt to .001 tolerances and then using a nut with a .05 tolerance. The larger delta negates the smaller delta.

There is no arguing that a machine with a tight temperature tolerance will produce a better cup with all the variables being the same. But at what point do we reach the point of diminished returns and unneeded performance tuning. That question is compounded by the unique perception of taste and flavor between people. So in the end, I guess the answer would be, it depends on the taster.

[timo888]

My quandary is not the difference in cup between the brew temperatures, there is most definitely a shift. If there is a range of temperature in the puck of 3 or 4 degrees, do you need a machine that produces a sub one degree temperature variance for the duration of the extraction when the largest variance is not in the machine but in the puck.

I am not refuting that a thermally stable machine is not desirable or necessary, but the need for a machine that produces half degree temperature variance. To my mind, that is like machining a bolt to .001 tolerances and then using a nut with a .05 tolerance. The larger delta negates the smaller delta.

There is no arguing that a machine with a tight temperature tolerance will produce a better cup with all the variables being the same. But at what point do we reach the point of diminished returns and unneeded performance tuning. That question is compounded by the unique perception of taste and flavor between people. So in the end, I guess the answer would be, it depends on the taster.

At what point does the narrowness of the brew water temperature range cease to make a meaningful difference in the cup?

The maximum temperature is important. The narrower the temperature band, the more accurately you can determine the max temperature. But apart from that, when do the benefits of keeping the temperature within a narrow band start to become undetectable in the cup? Setting aside individual tasting abilities and focusing on the chemistry of espresso production, I would say the answer to that question depends on the kind of shots you pull, that is, on the interplay of three factors:

(1) the brew ratio (coffee dose vs. beverage produced) and
(2) the shape of the basket, i.e. its height-to-width ratio and whether you are pulling a single or double|triple, and
(3) the cake porosity (fineness of grind/weight of tamp, and preinfusion).

If brew water temperature and pressure are constants, those factors would determine the temperature profile of the puck, top-to-bottom.

A flat temperature profile would be least evident with an overdosed triple ristretto and most evident with the single lungo. Assuming a constant temperature and pressure, if you pull an overdosed tight triple ristretto, i.e. with lots of solid mass but relatively little beverage, the temperature differential between the top of the puck and the bottom would be considerably greater than if you pulled a slightly underdosed double lungo.

Basket shape would influence the puck temperature profile too. Not sure how a tallish narrowish 45mm single basket dosed for normale would compare to 58mm double basket dosed for normale, for example.

And the cake porosity affects flow. The better the flow, the more equal the temperature of the puck top-to-bottom.

Regards
Timo