Working with my new La Cimbali Max Hybrid - Page 2

[cannonfodder]

I have never made Turkish coffee, but my Max (there are two different grinders a Cimbali Max and the Cimbali Jr with the hybrid Max burrs, size of the case is the only difference I have found) will produce powder. More along the lines of powdered sugar/flour.

[owlbass]

I was serious contemplating moving up to the Max-hybrid, but I have few questions first. Does one still have to WDT? something I feel that I must do with my mazzer mini, and I have to say that is say is one thing I despise in my routine. And is there a significant upgrade in grind quality from the mazzer mini? also meaning would i do better with a machine upgrade or is the max the way to go. Thanks
Owen

[zin1953]

I was serious contemplating moving up to the Max-hybrid, but I have few questions first. Does one still have to WDT? something I feel that I must do with my mazzer mini, and I have to say that is say is one thing I despise in my routine.

I don't have to.

And is there a significant upgrade in grind quality from the mazzer mini? also meaning would i do better with a machine upgrade or is the max the way to go.

Uh, Owen -- have you not been reading my posts so far?!?!?!

In case this wasn't clear, let me say it again . . .

I'm still impressed amazed at just how much difference the Cimbali Max Hybrid makes to the shot quality. I mean, obviously I thought it would; why else would I have purchased a new grinder? But I'm surprised at just how big a difference it is . . .

. . . the flavor profile across the board -- from 1 to 5 -- is superior to what I was getting from the Mazzer. Also, the grinds are much fluffier and there is much less static with this new grinder than with either the Mini Mazzer or the Quick Mill, and the doser sweeps much cleaner than the Mazzer as well.

Hope that helps . . .

Cheers,
Jason

[owlbass]

Thank you Jason. I did read your post but was just hoping to get the opinions of a few others before I buy an $800 grinder. the budget of a student doesn't call for much, these days, with the way tuition is going.
Owen

[Cafesp]

Thank you Jason. I did read your post but was just hoping to get the opinions of a few others before I buy...
Owen

You can't go wrong with it! Conical&Flat burr is the one you go for when buying a grinder to grow with it, like All Wheel Drive when buying a car.

Even compare with its same class grinder but doserless Versalab M3, IMHO, CMH produces better grind quality, fluffier, way.. way less static, (so less coffee flying everywhere in the room).
As being said in my previous post:
Same machine, same roast, same room, same class Conical&Flat burr grinder but different in doser style! (full or less) (CMH or M3) ; I can taste the difference in my cup.(YMMV)

Cafesp

[DigMe]

I've heard talk of Jim and others who change coffees several times a day not liking it because it's not good for that. Why is that? Is it hard to add just a couple of scoops of beans at a time for some reason?

brad

[zin1953]

No, not really. If you add enough coffee only for ONE shot (single or double), it may "popcorn" a bit, but I really haven't had that problem.

Cheers,
Jason

[orwa]

Hello!

I noticed that there is a bit of misconception regarding the Turkish grind. For example, one of the writers on the internet who has reviewed the KitchenAid Pro Line praised it as the "perfect Turkish grinder". I admit that if the Pro Line was good for Turkish, then it's good for something, added to this its looks, lesser statics and other nice features, but I know that it cannot produce such a grind. The Turkish grind was (and is still sometimes) produced using crushing-based mechanical methods that produce utter powder (something like coffee dust), identical to the feel of flour and powdered sugar. I doubt that the Max Hybrid can produce such a grind, I mean the grind could contain a considerable amount of powder, but would still have a gritty feeling. I do not drink Turkish coffee much myself, I love espresso, but those who do like my mom and grandmother will never be satisfied by such a less-than-optimal grind (which happens frequently when the roastery's grinders' burrs are worn, or maybe when they aren't calibrated for a true zero, and hence they cannot produce such a powdery grind). Interestingly enough, there are a lot of grinders that are made in Syria, usually imitating the Italian/German/Swiss designs (one of them is called bitting and is identical in the looks to the ditting). These grinders use funny toy-like cast burrs that are never good for anything, but still can (somehow) produce the Turkish powdery grind preferred by the Arabic population. These grinders are almost exclusively used for Turkish in different roasteries in the Arabic countries.

I hope that someone can make a video of one bottomless pour of the Max Hybrid grind, I am pretty interested in the grinder myself. However, to be honest I have doubts about the conical part, being only there to arbitrarily smash the beans prior to feeding them into the DRM burrs (supported by the popcorning observations). People often describe the grind resultant of such grinding method to be fluffy, which often incorporates a moderate amounts of unseen powder, that eventually results in a better body, though more astringency in taste. One of the manifestations of this however is earlier blonding, which goes against what is described here, which is exactly why I would love to see a bottomless pour.

[Marshall]

I hope that someone can make a video of one bottomless pour of the Max Hybrid grind, I am pretty interested in the grinder myself. However, to be honest I have doubts about the conical part, being only there to arbitrarily smash the beans prior to feeding them into the DRM burrs (supported by the popcorning observations). People often describe the grind resultant of such grinding method to be fluffy, which often incorporates a moderate amounts of unseen powder, that eventually results in a better body, though more astringency in taste. One of the manifestations of this however is earlier blonding, which goes against what is described here, which is exactly why I would love to see a bottomless pour.

"Arbitrarily" would mean the designers chose the conical phase randomly, such as by throwing darts at a list of alternatives. I am informed that the La Cimbali engineers put a bit more effort into their designs. Versalab went with the same design, which I also know was not "arbitrary."

At the very least, the design allows the machine to produce a top commercial-quality grind, while fitting under a normal kitchen or bar cabinet. (Try doing that with a Robur).

After more than two months of use, I can say with confidence that trading a Mazzer Mini for the Max made the single greatest improvement to my espresso in the last 5 years, including upgrading from a Silvia to a Zaffiro, installing a PID and upgrading from a Rocky to a Mini.

Looking at pictures of pours won't tell you much. It's easy to pull a beautiful shot that tastes mediocre. This is an extraordinary grinder.

[zin1953]

After more than two months of use, I can say with confidence that trading a Mazzer Mini for the Max made the single greatest improvement to my equipment in the last 5 years, including upgrading from a Silvia to a Zaffiro, installing a PID and upgrading from a Rocky to a Mini.

I second the motion, Your Honor, only that in my case, I upgraded from a Coffee Gaggia to a La Valentina and the grinder STILL made a bigger difference to the quality of my shots!!!

Cheers,
Jason

[cannonfodder]

I have never made Turkish coffee, I would not mind trying it but honestly, it just does not look that appetizing to me. I would think that the boiled coffee, after 3 boilings, would be horrible bitter, but I will try anything once and have been surprised more than a few times.

Having said that, if I adjust my Max down until the burrs start to touch, it will produce a grind comparable to flour. The grind speed is pretty darn slow when cranked down that far and is much to fine to use in an espresso machine. But as I said, I have no firsthand experience with the Turkish preparation method. I could not imagine the kitchenaid grinder even getting close.

[orwa]

"Arbitrarily" would mean the designers chose the conical phase randomly, such as by throwing darts at a list of alternatives. I am informed that the La Cimbali engineers put a bit more effort into their designs. Versalab went with the same design, which I also know was not "arbitrary."

Well, not necessarily, there are a number of elements necessary to each atomic step of grinding, for the grinding in whole to be optimum, of which someone can enumerate some by mere speculation. One of the elements is the grip, that is, how the particles in different grinding stages are held in place upon cutting them by one or more sharp edges. The fact that some conical burrs, especially those in hand-crank grinders, have more twist, makes someone think of what effect this may have upon the grinding process. My understanding is that more twist result in slower and more lateral application of the cutting edge, resulting in a better grip and a lesser opportunity for the bean to escape and jump, where in that case it would be left as a whole bean that has not yet been sliced but has been already hit, creating many cracks inside (which will manifest itself in the later steps of grinding because the bean will later on tend to follow the grinding scheme of these internal cracks rather than the scheme incorporated into the design of the burrs). However, I am tendant today to think that it's very difficult to follow these elements from the very beginning, that is, that the whole beans might be too fragile to allow you to cut them from the very beginning. Henceforth, the DRM flat burr may be honoured for the increased grind quality observed.

Why I do this is because, I am still not sure whether a large conical is a better choice than a hybrid. For example the MXKR ($800 to $700).

I have never mad Turkish coffee, I would not mind trying it but honestly, it just does not look that appetizing to me. I would think that the boiled coffee, after 3 boilings, would be horrible bitter, but I will try anything once and have been surprised more than a few times.

I suggest that you drink it when you come to be accompanied by someone who knows how to make it well (and make sure that she isn't a psycho Israeli girlfriend, and that the coffee is still called Turkish coffee -I am not Turkish, but I don't call it Saudi coffee either, Saudi's come to have their own coffee by the way which is very different). This is because in Turkish coffee, the technique is almost everything, my aunt has her own technique that is praised by the family (my mother and grandmother) to extract the flavours better, and to eliminate the acidity and the bitterness (she uses mid-dark freshly-roasted Brasilian Santos coffee), while preserving most of the Turkish crema on top (by postponing the introduction of a spoon or so of powdered coffee until the very end and stopping just prior to boiling). She boils the coffee with sugar as well by the way.

[zin1953]

Well . . . she may have been psycho, but the coffee was good!

[orwa]

[cafeIKE]

After more than two months of use, I can say with confidence that trading a Mazzer Mini for the Max made the single greatest improvement to my espresso in the last 5 years, including upgrading from a Silvia to a Zaffiro, installing a PID and upgrading from a Rocky to a Mini.

Looking at pictures of pours won't tell you much. It's easy to pull a beautiful shot that tastes mediocre. This is an extraordinary grinder.

amen

[kahvedelisi]

I have never mad Turkish coffee, I would not mind trying it but honestly, it just does not look that appetizing to me. I would think that the boiled coffee, after 3 boilings, would be horrible bitter, but I will try anything once and have been surprised more than a few times.

Hi Dave, I don't know how many times I wrote this in CoffeeGeek but I'll repeat again When you brew Turkish Coffee you "never" let it boil. Also no such things as "3 boilings". You just bring it to boiling, which means you bring it close to boiling but you don't let it boil. You'll see foam forming, you'll see its rising, then you immediately get it away from heat and pour into cup. As for 3 times boiling myth.. probably people do it to be sure that it's hot enough..and no we don't insert temperatures to our food, I can't imagine any turk using a temp. attached to his/her cezve brewing turkish coffee Argh! if I ever find who spreads these rumors about turkish coffee must be boiled......whatever.

But there is this coffee called mirra (it's wide spread at eastern parts of turkiye and iraq, some say it's arabic roots some say kurdish), it's brewed by boiling coffee grounds in 7 different sized pots, you start with a large one finish with a small one, once you boil you pour it to smaller pot and boil again. Here's a picture of mirra equipments (ah yes this one is horribly bitter )



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Now, can cimbali max hybrid grind for turkish? I don't know cos I don't have one, but I have cimbali Jr grinder if that counts and yes it perfectly grinds Turkish coffee at its setting "3". I read the posts above and actually I am quite surprised reading numbers like 1 or 1,25 for Turkish. Yes, you need powdered coffee for turkish but it's not as fine as flour or powdered sugar. When you take a pinch of flour and rub between your fingers it gives a smooth feeling right? With turkish it should be a little bit coarser, more like finely ground corn flour. Another way of understanding turkish grind, if you don't get any coffee grinds from start, when you sip the foam at top and till finish, that's right size of grinding. Also here are some pictures of flour and pre-ground turkish coffee for you to compare grind size.

barely touched both with a piece of cotton

--------------------

Interestingly enough, there are a lot of grinders that are made in Syria, usually imitating the Italian/German/Swiss designs (one of them is called bitting and is identical in the looks to the ditting). These grinders use funny toy-like cast burrs that are never good for anything, but still can (somehow) produce the Turkish powdery grind preferred by the Arabic population. These grinders are almost exclusively used for Turkish in different roasteries in the Arabic countries.

In Turkiye there are several grinder producers (they are also coffee roaster producers) such as Garanti Degirmen, Toper, and Has Garanti. There are mainly 2 types of grinders, using stainless steel or stone mills. Stone ones are for Turkish coffee exclusively, with steel ones you can change the setting and they're also suitable for turkish, you can see/read details from their sites.

[edwa]

Writers on this thread have touched upon the popcorning issue a couple of times. On other posts, pictures show people using a variety of items in the tops of their Mazzers and Macaps like tampers, plumbing parts, etc. I've also read from Ken that he keeps a certain amount of beans in the hopper, I think it was something like at least 3 shots worth?

The question is what are the rest of you Cimbali owners doing?

[cannonfodder]

Hi Dave, I don't know how many times I wrote this in CoffeeGeek but I'll repeat again When you brew Turkish Coffee you "never" let it boil. Also no such things as "3 boilings". You just bring it to boiling, which means you bring it close to boiling but you don't let it boil. You'll see foam forming, you'll see its rising, then you immediately get it away from heat and pour into cup. As for 3 times boiling myth.. probably people do it to be sure that it's hot enough..and no we don't insert temperatures to our food, I can't imagine any turk using a temp. attached to his/her cezve brewing turkish coffee Argh! if I ever find who spreads these rumors about turkish coffee must be boiled......whatever.

Sorry about that. I don't get onto coffeegeek very often anymore. I obviously have a misunderstanding of the brew method. Every reference I have seen refers to three boiling, or maybe more appropriately three foamings. The coffee should bloom and froth just before the boil if my observations are correct, unless you live at some ridicules altitude. I just may pick up an Ibirk to try it out. What style of coffee is used? I am sure not all blends work well for this brew type just as not all coffee makes good espresso. Is there a particular blend of beans that works well?

[cannonfodder]

Writers on this thread have touched upon the popcorning issue a couple of times. On other posts, pictures show people using a variety of items in the tops of their Mazzers and Macaps like tampers, plumbing parts, etc. I've also read from Ken that he keeps a certain amount of beans in the hopper, I think it was something like at least 3 shots worth?

The question is what are the rest of you Cimbali owners doing?

I don't think it is as big of a deal as I once perceived it to be. For me, the key is consistency. If you grid per shot, then always grind per shot and your grind will be consistent. If you put 30 grams of coffee in the hopper, than always put 30 grams of coffee in the hopper and the grind will be consistent.

Now if you put a half pound in there and set the grind, the last two shots will run noticeable fast as the grind shifts. I keep my grinder hopper full to just above the burr throat. That is around 3 shots worth of coffee. I grind make my shot and add a little back to keep the level the same.

[orwa]

Yes, you need powdered coffee for turkish but it's not as fine as flour or powdered sugar. When you take a pinch of flour and rub between your fingers it gives a smooth feeling right? With turkish it should be a little bit coarser, more like finely ground corn flour.

Interesting to know that. In the Arabic countries they use a true powdery grind, that is, they will go for the finest grind possible, and it's not unusual for someone to complain if the dust at the bottom of the Funjan was not as smooth as wet flour. Moreover, in Saudi Arabia, as well as in the rest of the Peninsula, Bedouins has a simple device called Al-Mihbaj, which is pretty similar to the pot-type two-piece garlic and herbs crusher, but whose bowl has a longer and a narrower neck so that ground coffee would not escape upon continuous (and violent) hitting by the roundly-ended hitting rod. The Mihbaj does indeed produce something similar in feeling to flour, and seems to meet Bedouins' preference for their coffee, which I believe is considered Turkish coffee (they say simply "coffee"), but I am not sure. What do you think? an incorrect practice of the Turkish brewing method, similar to the three-boils rumor? or an acceptable variation ?