Working with my new La Cimbali Max Hybrid - Page 8

[Marshall]

Marshall(and our OP)
I'm just about to pull the trigger on the CMH, but I'm just wondering about something---
My style, due to the fact I'm dosing into a 49mm basket is to thwack thwack AFTER the grinding process is complete (on my SJ) The reason is obviously that it's a bit harder to hit the target while holding the PF steady and thwacking.

That's why my grinder is plugged into a timer. Pros in the best shops thwack-thwack while grinding to break up clumps and distribute the grind evenly around the portafilter in small doses.

[Beezer]

I realize that clumping is partly a product of humidity, roast levels, age of the beans, etc. So far I've tried Barefoot Sweetness and Ecco Northern Italian blend, and both have been showing similar clumping. The weather here is warm and breezy but not particularly dry. Weatherunderground.com says it's 72 degrees and 28% humidity, which is cool for Fresno in June. I'm not sure whether the weather or coffee might be the culprit. Perhaps I need to try grinding with the Macap and comparing.

The experiment with taping wires across the chute and doser exits appears to be a failure, by the way. No noticeable change in clumping, and the pour was still uneven. When I tried WDT on my second shot, the pour was much better. Hmmm.

I'm beginning to wonder if this particular production run of CMH's is just more prone to clumping. There's at least one other person on Coffeegeek who recently got their CMH and is reporting similar problems. Or maybe it's just a combination of weather and beans. I'll keep working with it, but it's a bit discouraging.

[Beezer]

I'd need 3 hands to get the dosing lever, hold the PF then shut the grinder off without wasting a lot of coffee (though I know coffee waste is a part of the process!)
Will I be looking at clumpy grounds if I were to proceed in my fashion?

The switch on the CMH is cleverly located right where your thumb can reach it while thwacking the doser lever. So it's not hard to thwack and then hit the switch to turn off the grinder before you waste much coffee. It is a fast grinder, though, so it's not hard to let it run too long and waste some coffee if you're not quick about hitting the switch.

[cafeIKE]

That's why my grinder is plugged into a timer.

Ditto. 7.5s for ~15.5g / 4.5s for ~10g for this SO.

I'm beginning to wonder if this particular production run of CMH's is just more prone to clumping. There's at least one other person on Coffeegeek who recently got their CMH and is reporting similar problems. Or maybe it's just a combination of weather and beans. I'll keep working with it, but it's a bit discouraging.

Clumping comes and goes, just as it does with the MC4. Depends on the coffee, grind and Caillech.
When it's a bit clumpy, just distro a bit with crooked pinky.

[Beezer]

When it's a bit clumpy, just distro a bit with crooked pinky.

Is this the PDT (Pinkie Distribution Technique)?

So how are you distributing? I'm using a modified Stockfleth's move, but not getting good results unless I also do the WDT.

[cafeIKE]

I use a cutdown yoghurt funnel and rarely dose above the rim. A gentle side to side shake is usually all that's necessary. If the distribution looks off, I even it out a little. A while back, at the end of a roast, shots were off, so I used the WDT for a couple of days. Current coffee doesn't need it.

When I first saw the photo of the basket, I thought, "Gee, I'd make a double and a single from that much coffee." It's hard to tell precisely, but the grind looks much coarser. Have you weighed your dose?

[Beezer]

Well, that picture was taken before I did any kind of leveling or distribution. When I sweep off the top of the mound the dose comes out to around 18 grams. However, I don't bother to weigh my doses very often. Maybe I'll try dosing less and grinding finer.

[IMAWriter]

Eli...I noticed you also have an Anita. After a few years(!!) I discovered that, at least with my Synesso double basket a slightly down-dosed fill gave me more consistent, complex shots, with no channeling. (I have a nekked PF)
Just to scope out a 15 gram dose, try weighing your dose first (tare your scale with the empty basket)
Start with 15 grams, or maybe 16 tops. Some folks go as low as 14 grams as well.
I also recommend tapping the PF down before leveling. Typically, there should barely be any coffee over the rim.
Check for spaces around the rim of your basket before tamping. Tapping down will also break up a stubborn clump.

[IMAWriter]

OK....I think I have a buyer for my Mazzer SJ...I have the works, stainless grinds tray, 2 hoppers, etc.
Anyway, before I call Chris and pull the trigger on the CMH I'll ask all here:
Aside from looks, speed of grind and a bit more intensive work to keep clean, can ANYONE tell me why I SHOULDN'T make the switch?
It's not that I'm unhappy with the SJ. I just find that some of the CMH features might make it easier for me to dose my 49mm Cremina baskets, the height makes it work in my kitchen, and the "fluffier grind" possibility would also be welcome.
Also, can anyone tell me if the Clack clack on the CMH is louder or softer than the SJ?
Geesh, I'm like an old woman on this.
TIA for any responses.

[BobS]

Also, can anyone tell me if the Clack clack on the CMH is louder or softer than the SJ?

It's louder than either my Mini or Major.

Bob

[Navin]

Aside from looks, speed of grind and a bit more intensive work to keep clean, can ANYONE tell me why I SHOULDN'T make the switch?

I don't have any experience with the Max Hybrid, but I did purchase a Junior and promptly returned it to Chris's Coffee (thanks for the generous return policy!) and got a Super Jolly instead; my complaints about the Junior are related to the ergonomics and "external" properties of the grinder, so I would imagine that they apply equally to the Max Hybrid:

- I hated the feel of the doser lever on the Junior (to give you an idea of my preferences, among dosers I have used, my ranking in terms of feel is: 1- Compak, 2- Mazzer, 3- Macap (not far behind Mazzer), 4- Cimbali Junior).

- The sheet metal(?) body of the grinder didn't give me the same feeling of build quality as the "solid" feel of the Super Jolly. My Macap M4 felt more solid to me than the Junior, as well. Also, I managed to cut myself on an edge of the sheet metal.

- The area under the doser around the portafilter forks seemed really tight and a bit low in the Junior. Some combination of the portafilter position, the reflectivity and color of the grinder body, and the lighting in my kitchen made it difficult for me to see how the basket was filling while I was dosing. Also, it was difficult for me to maneuver my La Marzocco portafilter into position for dosing, especially if the doser-mounted tamper was present. I found the "portafilter area" to be much more conveniently positioned (higher and more open) in the other grinders I have tried (Compak K-10, Mazzer Super Jolly and Robur, Macap M4).

Those are the reasons why I would not get a Cimbali Max Hybrid; they are mostly subjective, of course, and if you have access to a Cimbali Junior anywhere nearby, you could probably determine within a few seconds whether or not they apply to you.

[zin1953]

Navin,

I suspect you are right it being subjective . . . I think it all depends upon what one is used to, and what one is willing to "adjust to."

I'll confess I'm not crazy about the way the doser lever feels on my Nuova Simonelli MCF, but I have no problem whatsoever with the doser handle of my Cimbali Max Hybrid (CMH). Both are more "horizontal" in orientation rather than "vertical," like my Mazzer Mini (which I replaced with the CMH). The difference is, IMHO of course, the CMH "horizontal" handle feels solid, while the NS MCF feels more -- not "flimsy," exactly, but distinctly less solid. For me, I only had to adjust to the horizontal feel of the CMH rather than the Mazzer -- and in no time at all I was perfectly comfortable using it . . .

As for the build quality of the CMH, I can't find any sort of sharp edge upon which you may have cut yourself, and I find the machine to be quite solid and very well-built. As for the distance between the bottom of the doser and the portafilter fork/rest, I actually find the smaller distance to be much more conducive to neatness. Granted, dosing espresso will always leave some sort of stray grounds about, and a "super neat freak" will only be content with ESE pods (thank god that's not me!), but I find the shorter distance between the bottom of the doser and the basket to be neater, less messy, than the larger distance. My Mazzer left much more or a mess than my CMH.

Like I said, it's probably a wash -- it's what you're used to, and what you can (or are willing to) adjust to.

C'est la vie . . .

Cheers,
Jason

[Navin]

I certainly agree that doser feel is a personal thing. I think my real point was that the Cimbali doser feels quite different from a Mazzer doser; the fact that I liked one over the other is maybe not so relevant (except that my impression of Rob's post was that he wanted a sort of "worst case" look at the Max Hybrid).

There were sharp edges on the Junior I used. For example, if you look at the front of the grinder you will see a narrow (about 0.25") "lip" where the side/back panel is wrapped around the front of the grinder; I cut myself on the exposed edge of the metal there.
I don't really feel like I can comment on actual build quality, and I tried to be clear in my initial post that I was only commenting on "perceived quality" (as perceived by me). Again, I think the bottom line is that it feels different from, say, a Mazzer, and different people will react to that in different ways.

[IMAWriter]

OK...lets move on from the doser.
So far in this thread, I've seen lots of folks migrating from Mazzer Mini to the CMH..but no one as yet from an SJ...I've used both{EDIT.by both, I mean Mini and SJ] and there is NO comparison in speed, grind quality or consistency...the SJ is superior. Earlier, I expressed my reasons for wanted to switch...
So is there anyone that has a CMH (not a Jr) that has switched from an SJ?
I'm going to guess not, as we might be talking more about apples and oranges here. My #1 concern, as it should be for ALL here, is grind quality. Less clumping would be a plus as well, though the doser breaks up most of that. Are the shots sweeter? Regardless of what the clack clack sounds like, does the CMH dose down a bit straighter? (as I said, the SJ exhibits the same left throw as the Mini)
I suppose the thing to do is purchase it and find out for myself. I just don't like to stick Chris (or any vendor) with a "used" grinder. One major thing I've noticed, is that the "tamper in the throat" grind by the shot method does not give me near the results with my Olympia Cremina as it does with Anita. With the short (still too tall for my cabinets) mini hopper in place, I have much better results. Obviously, with the CMH, bean switching is a no no. I can live with that.
Realizing it's MY credit card, I'd still appreciate any feedback y'all have time to post here.
Finally.....HAPPY FATHER'S DAY TO ALL! (Fathers!)

[Ducatista]

I am in the process of getting used to my new CMH which is intended to replace my Mini.

Thus far, I like my Mini better... but things may improve with time as I adjust to a new grinder.

Negatives:
1) Clumping is way more pronounced that with the Mini (this is biggest issue)
2) Hard to see the portafilter basket when dosing due to the plastic coffee tamper attached to the front of grinder blocking the view. Even with the doser-tamper removed it is still awkward.
3) Don't like the plastic Portafilter fork, prefer the metal fork on the Mini.

Positives:
1) Faster than Mini
2) Convenient to adjust grind knob
3) Doser sweep works well

The biggest negative issue for me is the increase in clumping which requires extensive WDT method to break them up.

[Marshall]

Current threads focused on grinders that "clump" and shots that don't make pretty bottomless videos have pretty well convinced me that all espresso reviews should be conducted by the blind.

[cafeIKE]

Negatives:
1) Clumping is way more pronounced that with the Mini (this is biggest issue)
2) Hard to see the portafilter basket when dosing due to the plastic coffee tamper attached to the front of grinder blocking the view. Even with the doser-tamper removed it is still awkward.
3) Don't like the plastic Portafilter fork, prefer the metal fork on the Mini.

1) Varies by coffee and grind, just like any other grinder.
2) Remove the tamper. Send back to Chris for a refund
3) Remove the fork. Ditto.

Current threads focused on grinders that "clump" and shots that don't make pretty bottomless videos have pretty well convinced me that all espresso reviews should be conducted by the blind.

Welcome to my club.

[edwa]

Ducatista,

Please post more observations as you adjust to your new grinder. Its always good to hear differing points of view. I'm a Mini owner considering the CMH but have been dragging my feet because I "occasionally" dump out the beans to have some decaf in the evening and then, because of my self-deprecating nature, I wonder if my weekly cigar-burned taste buds would tell the difference.

What machine are you using with your CMH? What beans, roast date, etc. Have you pulled back to back shots from each and tasted a difference? What did it taste like?

I suspect you were grinding then dosing, have you tried using cafeIke's 7.5 second count as you thwacked and then distributed with your preferred non-WDT method? It takes about a 16 count for my Mini to fill my PF and I can imagine the faster speed of the CMH would be a little concerning at first.

[IMAWriter]

Though I dosed both while my SJ is grinding, as well as directly after the grind has been completed, I noticed no difference in pours. I really don't see, other than time (crucial with HX shots) why it would make any difference...the same doser...I just tap down on the PF about 2/3 of the way through my dosing into the PF...
Post grind dosing also helps me control direction a bit better...that left throw thing. YMMV
One other question for CMH owners. Do the grinds gather annoyingly on the dosing mechanism as they do on the Mazzer's star mechanism? I rather not have to do that sort pf mod on an $800 grinder. Guess I'm getting old

[zin1953]

I am impressed (apparently I impress easily) that this thread has a) grown to such lengths, and b) taken on a life of its own.

* * * * *

Ken, a brief observation, if I may . . .

Negatives:
1) Clumping is way more pronounced that with the Mini (this is biggest issue).
2) Hard to see the portafilter basket when dosing due to the plastic coffee tamper attached to the front of grinder blocking the view. Even with the doser-tamper removed it is still awkward.
3) Don't like the plastic Portafilter fork, prefer the metal fork on the Mini.

a) I get far LESS clumping with the CMH than I ever did with my Mazzer Mini (using the same beans); I think this is a variable that -- in all probability -- has more to do with weather than the machines itself.
b) Not a problem for me; I think this is a personal preference that one adjusts to (or not), much like the fact that Navin prefers the longer drop of a Mazzer because it's easier to see, and I prefer the shorter drop because of the neatness. I think it's "a wash," and, while important in terms of personal preferences, doesn't affect the performance of the grinder(s) in and of itself.
c) Of course this is purely an aesthetic observation and again, while important to the individual's personal preferences, doesn't affect performance.

Positives:
1) Faster than Mini
2) Convenient to adjust grind knob
3) Doser sweep works well

All three of these, OTOH, are performance issues . . .

La-de-da, la-de-da*

Cheers,
Jason

* Sorry -- I was having an Annie Hall moment.