With apologies: Which E61 machine and why?

[jmatt]

Yes - I'm new here, but I assure you all I read a TON of posts and MANY of the reviews here before asking this question. For example, a week ago I never heard of E61, didn't know anything about tamp pressures, didn't understand how fine to grind, and didn't realize how important brew temperature was. I've learned these things and more both here and at CG. I've familiarized myself with 1st-line, sweet-marias and Chriscoffee. I learned roughly WHAT I want, but can't figure out WHICH I want. That's where I'm hoping this forum will help.



I want an E61-based machine.
It's just for my wife & I, so I will rarely pull multiple shots in a row. She likes milk-based drinks, but with only 2 of us I doubt most machines will get overworked by us. We've had a cheap piece of garbage "espresso" machine for years, but until these forums I never realized WHY I could never get it right. My results seemed random.

I won't be plumbing the machine in, so that option is not important to me.

What I want is something that will last, and will give me repeatable, reliable results.

I'm thinking along the lines of something from Quickmill or Expobar, or perhaps a Grimac MIA, or some of the other brands reviewed here.

I will gladly spend $1000 on the espresso machine. I may consider spending as much as the Brewtus II, but that would be my absolute maximum. I intend on buying a Rocky doserless to go along with my new machine.

The pictures of most of the E61-based machines all seem similar, so without seeing and using them in person it's hard for the neophyte like me to discern the differences. I'm interested in the rotary pump model from Quickmill. I'm also intrigued by the dual boiler of the Brewtus II. Those may be overkill for two people having drinks at home though.

Can I get some thoughts for my price range? As I mentioned, I've never used anything better than a $89 machine before. I'd rather not waste my money by moving up the ladder incrementally though.

I appreciate any and all advice. If I forgot to provide any detail needed to answer my request, please let me know.

Thanks.

[RapidCoffee]

OK, I'll take a stab at this. First, go with an HX machine if milk-based drinks are part of the requirements. In your price range ($1000), E61 HX machine options are limited. I'd avoid the Expobar Office line due to quality control issues (no flames please, just my opinion). The QuickMill Anita from Chris' Coffee would be a great choice, also the Fiorenzato Bricoletta pourover model from 1st-line (both currently priced at $1000).

Second, do NOT skimp on the grinder. Spend $400 and get a Macap or a Mazzer. A good grinder is much more important than which E61 HX machine you choose.
________
John

[jmatt]

Thanks for taking a stab at responding. I appreciate it.

I don't think I'm as limited as you were thinking though.

I'll spend $1000 - as the minimum.
I'd spend up to $1700 - for the espresso machine alone. Grinder, etc is in addition.

Does that expand your original answer?

Thanks again.

[Rainman]

Hi, Jmatt- now you're kind of in the realm of "how much do you want to pay attention to what you're doing while making espresso" machines. If you don't mind temp-surfing, or flushing lots of water before pulling the shot- AND you think that you have an occasion of having a group of people that you may need to make back-to-back shots and/or espresso-based (diluted with milk/chocolate...) kinds of drinks, then you might want to consider a 2-boiler machine like a brewtus, La Spaziale S1 or the Rancilio S24 (if money is NO object, then the La Marzocco GS3).. If you do that, then you must spring for a really great grinder (probably a Mazzer mini , Mazzer kony, or the Versalab). I've had a Brewtus for about 2 yrs now, and a Rancilio Rocky for around 6... I'm starting to think that my shots are lacking because my grinder is just not quite capable of producing the kind of grind needed for the quality of beans I'm roasting right now. In case you were wondering, heat exchanger machines require lots of water because of the frequent flushes to bring them down to proper temperature to brew (not such a big deal, because water is cheap- unless you are making lots of espresso, and having to constantly flush the group to control temp). Here's a discussion that I think Dan Kehn started, but Luca pretty much dominated (an Aussie who frequents this forum as well as those on coffeegeek)- http://www.home-barista.com/forums/what-was-your-upgrade-path-from-a-rancilio-silvia-class-espresso-machine-t2253-20.html. I think the double-boiler machines out-pace the HX machines, but maybe I'm lazy and don't like to waste water (I do live in the desert!).

Good luck with your purchase; just don't be too hasty.. I know you read, so that's to your advantage!

Ray (happy Brewtus owner for ~ 2 yrs, and hoping to talk my wife into a Versalab Christmas gift this year!)

[keno]

With the budget you describe I'd be sure to at least consider the following E61 machines:

(1) Valentina
(2) Vibiemme Domobar Super
(3) Andreja Premium
(4) ECM Giotto

These seem to be four of the top E61 machines readily available in this country. There are probably other good machines available. Reviews of the Valentina and Andreja Premium are available on HB. The bigger question you may want to answer is whether you might want to consider a small dual boiler machine like the La Spaziale (your budget of $1700 puts you nearly within reach of this machine, but not unless you are willing to plumb it in).

I would also echo what some of the other posters have said about the grinder. Get a good grinder. I would opt for the Macap or Mazzer over the Rocky (having owned both a Rocky and M4). The Rocky is a fine grinder, but it doesn't have the power of the others and struggles a little under load.

I chose the Valentina because I liked the high quality of parts and construction and like the aesthetics and functionality of it. Based on what you say you are looking for I think you wouldn't go wrong with any of these four machines.

Good luck with your decision and purchase.

[timo888]

I don't use an E61 machine myself but would encourage you to scout out discussions of the E61 cooling flush. The E61 cooling flush wastes far too much water for me, and there is quite a lot of rigmarole to E61 temperature management, which you might not like. If you're willing to spend the money on the Brewtus II, go for it. La Spaziale would also be something worth taking a close look at. There may be closeouts on the previous year's model.

Regards
Timo

[jmatt]

Thanks for the responses all. Some new things to think about.

I've wondered about the whole cooling flush, temperature regulation rigamarole with the E61. However, since I'm only usually preparing two drinks at a time, I figured it wouldn't be so bad. I can see how it would get old with larger volume production.

Thanks again.

[timo888]

Thanks for the responses all. Some new things to think about.

I've wondered about the whole cooling flush, temperature regulation rigamarole with the E61. However, since I'm only usually preparing two drinks at a time, I figured it wouldn't be so bad. I can see how it would get old with larger volume production.

Thanks again.

It gets old with minimal production volume.
Regards
Timo

[Martin]

Thanks for the responses all. Some new things to think about.

I've wondered about the whole cooling flush, temperature regulation rigamarole with the E61. However, since I'm only usually preparing two drinks at a time, I figured it wouldn't be so bad. I can see how it would get old with larger volume production.

Thanks again.

After 3 1/2 years, I just sold my Isomac Tea, a "solid" E61 machine, and I've got a LaSpaziale V-2 on order from Chris Coffee. It's not relevant that what finally motivated to give into my upgrade itch was that the Tea had a problem I couldn't figure out easily (that can happen to me with any machine). So it was a good time to make a move.

Some observations:
Don't assume that your current use or "need," or your mean # of shots per week should determine the machine you buy, and don't assume that you are correctly anticipating your number of shots. For example, my wife and I each have a cappa in the morning, and then I have another shot before taking off. PM, it's another decaf cappa each. So that's a minimum of 5 shots, often more and it means that I refill the reservoir daily at least.

There may be occasions (once a month? twice a year?) when you want multiple milk shots for guests who are lined up. Likewise, frequency of use doesn't necessarily translate into a sensible decision because ANY of the machines mentioned in this thread are "good enough." You don't necessarily buy your car on the basis of how many miles you put on it each year, but how you like to feel when you drive. And don't feel that because you are a "beginner," you should be looking for a "beginner machine."

FWIW, a direct connect machine saves lots of annoyance on a number of counts (including, in my case, dribbling water into the innards of the machine when filling it, running out of water in the middle of a shot, and more). Some reservoir machines have an option for direct connect and that's worth considering. If you can work out the access (not drilling through granite or draping a hose across the kitchen) the plumbing itself is, literally, a snap.

Be sure to check out your needs for filtering and softening, and make that part of your decision-making.

Consider buying from either of the two "gold standard" (IMO) Internet dealers----Chris Coffee, or 1st Line. If neither carries a machine that seems right, consider another machine. Not to disparage other machines and dealers, some are truly outstanding, but as an espresso newbie, you want to play the best odds.

Martin

[HB]

Thanks for the responses all. Some new things to think about.

I've wondered about the whole cooling flush, temperature regulation rigamarole with the E61. However, since I'm only usually preparing two drinks at a time, I figured it wouldn't be so bad. I can see how it would get old with larger volume production.

Thanks again.

The extra steps required for temperature management of heat exchanger machines versus the relative "no brainer" ease of a double boiler comes up frequently. I've used both types of machines extensively and don't mind working with either, but the lack of a temperature readout and the extra steps of an HX espresso machine really irks some people.

A few good reads on the subject are Randomperson's Choice and Eric's Alternative. As I said in one of those threads, there's no arguing that managing brew temperature on a dedicated boiler espresso machine is easier than an HX. Jim's $10 Method for Temperature Tuning an HX Machine gets you in the ballpark and you can then adjust by taste. With a dedicated boiler machine, you trust that the temperature control is doing its job. Abe reported in his writeup that the Brewtus delivers consistent brew temperature with little hassle (i.e., a "lazy man's" flush and you're ready). That's a big selling feature of double-boilers like the Brewtus, the La Marzocco GS3, and the La Spaziale S1.

On the other hand, with the help of Eric's adapter, my HX machine can easily target temperatures within ~1F and twiddling the temperature on the fly requires only a few extra seconds. That's something a double boiler can't do.

[kaioslider]

You have a healthy budget here and sounds like you did your homework. As another poster said, get a Macap or Mazzer. The Rocky is a capable grinder, but since you're going to jump in with both feet, don't waste your time, most of use here who have started with a Rocky eventually end up with one of these two grinders. As for the espresso machine, I don't think you could go wrong with an Anita, but you might want some of the extra bells and whistle on the Andreja. Since you're not going to plumb in, the rotary pumps are out unless you were thinking flo-jet (which still has a plumbing aspect to it). There are lots of great espresso machines in your price range, and keno's list is great, I don't think you would be dissatisfied with any of them. They all have little differences like boiler size, wattage, reservoir size, overall size, etc. Some folks will swear on one machine, I'm basis to mine, but in truth the best machine for you will be how you use it, then again, from what you're telling us, only a couple of drinks in a row, any of the above will work just fine. My suggestion based on your budget, Macap grinder and Quick Mill Andreja (basis )

Best of luck

[stevendouglas]

Having been through the same exact process you've just went through, one thing is certain, your world is about to change! In a couple of months, you'll be drinking some of the best coffee (espresso, cappuccinos, etc.) on the planet, and you'll almost certainly never order another espresso or cappuccino at a franchise coffee house.

As for the machine, any machine (combined with a good grinder) that's been mentioned or that has been reviewed on this site will provide extraordinarily good espresso and milk-based drinks for a very long time. So, you shouldn't be disappointed regardless of what you pick. FWIW, I own the Elektra A3 (home), La Spaziale Vivaldi S1 (office, I haven't installed or used it yet), Astra GA (office, for sale), and I've used my brother's Vetrano.

The Elektra is probably overkill, but it's far and away my favorite. I don't have the experience that many many others do on this site, but at my skill level I probably couldn't justify the extra cost of the A3 (over say the Vetrano), based on the quality in the cup.

I think people make too much out of the HX flushing. Honestly, it's not a big deal. Moreover, you can monitor brew temperature by installing a thermocouple adaptor giving you the best of both worlds. I'm thinking of doing this with the A3 if it's possible (the A3 doesn't use an E61 group - similar, but not exactly). I would do this only out of engineering curiosity and gadget lust rather than a belief that I absolutely need to know the exact temperature in order to get good espresso.

Both 1st-Line and Chris' Coffee are discounting the La Spaziale S1 Vivaldi I (compared to the Vivaldi II) such that these machines are about the same price as the Brewtus II. For the same price, I chose the S1 over the Brewtus for the bigger steam and rotary pump. The S1 requires plumbing and the Brewtus does not. I couldn't tell from your post whether you could not plumb it in or just didn't have to plumb it in.

You really can't go wrong, but the Vetrano is a really great machine for the money. I've recommended it to a couple of friends and to my brother, who loves his.

Good luck

[jmatt]

If you can work out the access (not drilling through granite or draping a hose across the kitchen) the plumbing itself is, literally, a snap.

. . .I couldn't tell from your post whether you could not plumb it in or just didn't have to plumb it in. . .

Thanks guys. Actually, Martin nailed the problem. All of our countertops are granite, and the backsplashes are slate. Even if I ultimately plumb in a machine, I don't think I want to go that route from the beginning until after I've used it for a while and am sure about location, etc.

Thanks again to everyone for the great insights.

[luca]

I don't use an E61 machine myself but would encourage you to scout out discussions of the E61 cooling flush. The E61 cooling flush wastes far too much water for me, and there is quite a lot of rigmarole to E61 temperature management, which you might not like. If you're willing to spend the money on the Brewtus II, go for it. La Spaziale would also be something worth taking a close look at. There may be closeouts on the previous year's model.

Just to play devil's advocate, the better prosumer E61s here, IMHO, produce better results than the BII (or at least our version of the BII) does. Some prosumer machines require a cooling flush that is more or less the same as the heating/cleaning flush that you'd have to give any of the dual-boiler machines. How you could work out what sort of flush a given prosumer machine will require without (a) already knowing how to do a cooling flush and (b) actually using the machines is anybody's guess, though.

(Sorry, just had a Michael T moment!)

To put it all in perspective, I think that none of these minutii that we all discuss ad infinitum will really make any difference for at least the first six months of a new barista's machine use, when their technique isn't that consistent. So the cruel - and utterly predictable - twist of fate is that people who are shopping for their first machines are in the worst possible position to make the choice.

I don't know what you can do beyond (a) reading reviews (and discounting those from people who have had less than six months experience, particularly if they don't compare the machine to other, similar machines that are available), (b) asking someone that you trust and (c) using the machines and/or getting someone to demo them. Maybe I should start a separate thread on this ...

Cheers,

Luca "what, me cynical?" C

[timo888]

Luca,
I don't mind the idea of a brief flush-- it's when the amount of water required becomes copious that my sense of efficiency and economy tells me there's a better way.

A while back in the What was Your Upgrade Path from a Rancilio-Silvia class of machine thread, you compared three machines, anonymously. What was machine B, the one that required the very small cooling flush?

Machine A: 100mL cooling flush, espresso went from dark to blonde relatively quickly. Massive steam power, pretty good steam tip.

Machine B: 10mL cooling flush (just to clean the screen), picture-perfect pour. Steam OK for 6oz cappuccini, but not very abundant. Stock steam tip sucked.

Machine C: 300mL cooling flush (!), 10 seconds to first drops, regardless of grind; espresso started off very dark, then finished an OK colour. Heaps of steam, but, again, stock tip sucked.

Three different machines, nothing too different about them on paper, but Machine B leads the pack by a mile, IMHO.

(emphasis supplied)

Regards
Timo

[HB]

I don't mind the idea of a brief flush-- it's when the amount of water required becomes copious that my sense of efficiency and economy tells me there's a better way.

For those who have an acute sense of efficiency and economy, it is worth noting that heat exchanger espresso machines easily beat double boilers in terms of energy efficiency.

[timo888]

For that reason, I wouldn't buy a double boiler that didn't have the steam boiler on a separate on-off switch. And I wouldn't design a machine to superheat the water in the first place. All that wasted energy used to heat the water, only to have the heat sinked away by a chunk of brass.

No, give me a well-insulated brew-kettle that heats the water to but a few degrees hotter than desired, with a minimally conductive, ultra-simple, stainless steel group and brew path.

And a home where the buffalo roam.

Regards
Timo

[timo888]

Upscale domestic prosumer machines have more power and volume than the typical home user needs, even for entertaining at a dinner party. The prosumer models are really caterer models, IMO. One could reduce the wattage in both boilers to around 750W each, keep the boilers on different switches, use the steam boiler to preheat the brew kettle water and yet not require it to do so. Without the preheat, it would simply take the brew kettle longer to heat and recover. With a stainless steel group instead of a heavy piece of brass, the water would be heated to just a little higher than brew temperature, and a simple warming flush or two could bring the group up to temp -- a warming flush and passive conduction, if the top of the group and the base of the kettle are joined.

Regards
Timo

[cannonfodder]

I have a two group HX, single group HX, single boiler lever and a test HX lever. The cooling flush was a little difficult to get a firm grasp on for a few months, but once you learn the machine, it becomes trivial. Keep in mind, if you change blends often you can adjust you brew temperature on a HX by simply waiting another few seconds or starting a few seconds quicker. Once you get the hang of it you can adjust your brew temperature on the fly.

Another tidbit, if HX machines were that difficult to master they would not makeup the lions share of the commercial espresso machine market. Either will probably serve you well for many, many years to come and pull shots of equal quality. It is strictly a personal decision.

[luca]

Hi Timo,

I've actually tried to avoid answering that question several times on this site because I have recently started a job that will partly entail selling prosumer machines! It will probably come out eventually, but for now I'll just send you a PM. The machine isn't available in the US, for anyone who might be wondering, but y'all might have machines that perform similarly.

Another tidbit, if HX machines were that difficult to master they would not makeup the lions share of the commercial espresso machine market.

I don't think that that's a very convincing argument. The lions share of commercial espresso machines are used to produce swill - go up to 90% of people using a HX machine in a cafe and ask them how long their cooling flush needs to be to hit their desired brew temperature and I reckon that you'll get blank stares. For whatever reason, most commercial HX machines are a good deal cheaper than the few multiple-boiler machines.

Of course, none of that is to say that there are not some really great commercial HX machines out there.

Cheers,

Luca