With apologies: Which E61 machine and why? - Page 2

[timo888]

... if HX machines were that difficult to master they would not makeup the lions share of the commercial espresso machine market.

I just wanted to let the original poster know that HX flush routines are something to bear in mind, since not all HX machines are created equal. He had the mistaken notion that the flush was necessary only when making many shots in a row. A machine that needs a 300mL flush to cool down could be somewhat inconvenient if not plumbed in.

When shoppers moving from a steam toy to a real machine say 'it will only be two cups a day' I infer, perhaps incorrectly, that they want a machine without expensive bells and whistles, that is very easy to operate and maintain, and whose cost-of-ownership is on the low end of the scale. More likely than not, they will also want a machine that does not take 30 minutes or more to heat up. Some HX machines fit that description better than others.

Regards
Timo

[cannonfodder]

Hi Timo,

Another tidbit, if HX machines were that difficult to master they would not makeup the lions share of the commercial espresso machine market.

I don't think that that's a very convincing argument. The lions share of commercial espresso machines are used to produce swill - go up to 90% of people using a HX machine in a cafe and ask them how long their cooling flush needs to be to hit their desired brew temperature and I reckon that you'll get blank stares.
Luca

True, sadly true but that is lack of training and the I do not care mentality of the shop and not a deficiency on the machines part.

Having to refill a reservoir can be a pain as well as emptying a drip tray. I must admit I have gotten spoiled with the Faema, plumbed in, plumbed out on 24/7. I even added a float valve to my Isomac's water reservoir so I would not have to refill it.

[Psyd]

True, sadly true but that is lack of training and the I do not care mentality of the shop and not a deficiency on the machines part.

Having to refill a reservoir can be a pain as well as emptying a drip tray. I must admit I have gotten spoiled with the Faema, plumbed in, plumbed out on 24/7.

I'll double what he said. Stupid people can make swill on anything, and great baristi can get great shots out of anything (see Mark Prince's shots out of a Krups here).

And from my morning's first double, to the last cuppa herbal tea before bed, having the 12 litre kitchen-warmer at the ready is an addiction that I'll not be able to soon get over.

[randomperson]

When shoppers moving from a steam toy to a real machine say 'it will only be two cups a day' I infer, perhaps incorrectly, that they want a machine without expensive bells and whistles, that is very easy to operate and maintain, and whose cost-of-ownership is on the low end of the scale. More likely than not, they will also want a machine that does not take 30 minutes or more to heat up. Some HX machines fit that description better than others.

Regards
Timo

I think for two cups a day the machine should be something like a Gaggia. But for two cups in a row quickly, that might call for an HX. And for two cups in a row quickly with lotsa milk, well then HX makes even more sense.

Having gone this route recently, I think that for truly low volume home use the home specific machines like Gaggia and Silvia make perfect sense. But as soon as you get into the realm of a couple of milk drinks in a row, the HX makes more sense. And once you get one, you pull many more shots -- just because you can!

In my case, I migrated from steam toy (a shot once in a blue moon) to Gaggia Classic (a classic cappa in the afternoon) to La Valentina HX: two doubles for capps in the morning, then two in the afternoon for me and my partner, then more for guests, so four to eight doubles a day now -- just because I can!

So while your current volume might not dictate the need for an HX, you'd be amazed how that changes once you get one. In my case, my La Valentina purchase is up there with the best purchases I have ever made -- not necessarily because I needed it, but because I grew into it so nicely!

[sheygetz]

... a week ago I never heard of E61...
... I want an E61-based machine...

While, confronted with a plethora of bewildering choices, it usually is a good thing to put down some basic requirements, I do wonder why it was this one you chose.

Over the roughly 20 months since I was where you stand now I've come across many a heated thread on whether a particular machine was a *real* E61 or not. To the best of my knowledge nobody as yet has been able to conclusively pin down what makes a *real* E61 - there is a basic principle (Faema's) and loads of minor and major variations on that theme. So, strictly speaking, you're premise isn't going to get you anywhere much.

I had a whole directory of favourites dedicated to this enigma, but have to admit I quit following those threads as I went from only *reading* to actually laying my hands on as many machines as I could in shops, at board meets etc. Engineering principle aside, it all comes down to the quality of the coffee they make - more heated discussions - and, this should be easier to get objective opinions on, ease of use (including availability of service) and compliance with individual limitations (no drilling of counterspace) and dis-/likes.

The differences between heat exchangers and the double boilers also suggested here do imho far exceed those between, say, a Valentina/ BFC Junior, Nuova Era Alexa, Bezzera 99, Grimac Mia/ Uno, Isomac or indeed Oscar - to name just the ones I lay my hands on. Try whichever you can get hold of and buy the one you feel most at home with - I e.g. found the Bezzera too cramped to work on -, you cannot really go wrong. I'd really suggest you draw up a more pragmatic list of those "limitations and dis-/likes" for starters (Wasn't there a Decidomatic Excel-table available for download somewhere, CG afair...).

On your kinda budget and 20 months later I would no doubt go for the Cimbali Junior - do yourself a favour and get your hands on one if sheer quality and workmanship mean anything at all to you - or most any used commercial, rotary-pumped macchina in good shape, which could run from a bucket (Rancilio S-series, Nuova Simonelli Mac/ Premier/ Personal, Carimali Uno/Eta Beta, later incarnations of Cimbali's Bistro) - at least until the countertops are "ripe" . Less flushing - we're talking up to 150ml for some of the prosumer machines mentioned above -, more forgiving, better components. Coming to think of it the Rancilio Epoca reservoir version might just clear your budget fresh out of the box.

Sheygetz

[Psyd]

Valentina/ BFC Junior, Nuova Era Alexa, Bezzera 99, Grimac Mia/ Uno, Isomac or indeed Oscar - to name just the ones I lay my hands on. Try whichever you can get hold of and buy the one you feel most at home with

OK vendors, I smell a Roadshow! UPS doesn't sound pragmatic, I suggest we start a Clark tranfer or Rock-it Cargotruck and a WhisperWatt Genny. 40 KW ought to do it. Just drive the thing up to a fire hydrant, fir up the genny, and start pulling shots! As an added bonus, some vendor could send out grinders and have that put to be at the same time!
<Homer> MMMmmmmm.... Roadshow... aaagghhhhh</Homer>

[mrgnomer]

I had a whole directory of favourites dedicated to this enigma, but have to admit I quit following those threads as I went from only *reading* to actually laying my hands on as many machines as I could in shops, at board meets etc. Engineering principle aside, it all comes down to the quality of the coffee they make - more heated discussions - and, this should be easier to get objective opinions on, ease of use (including availability of service) and compliance with individual limitations (no drilling of counterspace) and dis-/likes.
Sheygetz

That's very good advice. It's how I settled on a Vetrano vs. an Elektra A3.

I think that the prosumer HX machines that are being discussed are just right for home use. At an average boiler size of 1.5L that's just enough to give you power to froth and make a few shots in a row but not enough to crank out the shots. With my Vetrano I don't pull a double, flush to clean the grouphead then froth since I've noticed the pressure in the boiler goes down to the point that I lose power at the end of steaming. If I had gotten a 4L boilered machine like the A3 or an Astra Gourmet I could probably steam and flush at the same time but for my needs a boiler that big was too much.

I'm reading too where HX design has a lot to do with how water circulates through. Adding a smaller restrictor, from what I understand, will decrease flow, keep temps down and necessitate less flushing so to say you've got to flush too much with an HX is relative. You can lower your boiler pressure if you don't steam a lot and want to flush less as well. The Vetrano would be a machine I'd recommend for home use since all it's features not only make it a good machine but are well suited to an HX: rotary pump plumb in, optional Sirai pressurestat upgrade, insulated boiler... At the same price as an Andreja Premium, from what I know, it's an excellent value as well.