Wicked Lure of the Lever...

[annp]

I was in Williams Sonoma yesterday looking for some rub for a lamb loin and a few other obscure kitchen items and couldn't help to notice amidst all the super-auto boxes, a Pavoni...

So I operated it's lever and admired its chromey shine.

This was the little one - the Europiccola (for like 600+ who are they kidding!?) and it sure was cool.

I'd never met one face to face before - and I certainly understand the allure.

So, oh wise Lever people, How good is the Europiccola at steaming? If you like big milky drinks, would one be better off with the Pro? I assumed that, but since I am looking on ebay, I need to have an open mind and perhaps the smaller one would meet my needs.

Ann

[happytamper]

The Europiccola is absolutely fine for steaming. Loads of steam. I had a Saeco Magic way back and the La Pavoni produces much more steam.

Welcome to the Lever world.

[timo888]

It is a versatile machine ... you can also sear the lamb with it.

[prof_stack]

I was in Williams Sonoma yesterday ... This was the little one - the Europiccola (for like 600+ who are they kidding!?)Ann

The 600+ is the normal retail store price for the Euro. Remember, though, Williams-Sonoma really takes care of their customers. Otherwise you can save money on-line, as usual.

[ulrikmo]

Hi Ann

Having owned both a europiccola (2 as a fact..) and a Pro, I would certainly (of those 2) recommend the pro for your big lattes. You will probably experience a slight deterioration in microfoam, compared to the Anita, I sold the pro and upgraded to a BFC junior/ La Valentina, and was amazed by the steaming power +texture you get in this class of HX's.
That said, the Pro does perform quite well in the lever group, regarding steaming. If that is the most important, and you will be drinking Lattes most of the time, you might want to consider the Elektra microcasa, which I find have more steam-power, or the new Achille from Gaggia, which although I haven't tried it, sounds like the best buy at the moment, also eliminating the ever-discussed issue of over-heating, which I actually find more irritating now after having gotten the Valentina, and could be an issue if you want to do servings for guests as well, since most other levers are limited to 3-4 shots before this occurs.
I Wouldn't jump on a Pavoni for 600+, then the new achille is definitely worth the little extra money. Only disadvantage is that you probably won't find it used ( as with the pavonis, easily found at flea-bay for around 300-400US). The aestetics (did I spell that right?) of the Pavoni (compared to the other levers in this price range) however beats them all!
These machines also last forever, and you can do almost all of whatever needed refurbishing yourself, currently own one Europic from end of 60'ies or beginning of 70ies running as a dream..
Good luck with finding one lever that suits your needs!

Best regards
Ulrikmo

[GreatDane]

Welcome Ann,

I have to disagree with Ulrikmo when he says, "I sold the pro and upgraded to a BFC junior/ La Valentina, and was amazed by the steaming power +texture you get in this class of HX's." I have steamed with about a dozen HX machines. They make good milk drinks, but they are not superior to a good lever machine. The best microfoam I have ever had comes from my Cremina. Some of it is practice, but it produces a very nice cappo or latte. I have steamed on a Pavoni and had good results too. I have upgraded too and put my HX in storage!

Les

[ulrikmo]

Welcome Ann,

I have to disagree with Ulrikmo when he says, "I sold the pro and upgraded to a BFC junior/ La Valentina, and was amazed by the steaming power +texture you get in this class of HX's." I have steamed with about a dozen HX machines. They make good milk drinks, but they are not superior to a good lever machine. The best mirofoam I have ever had comes from my Cremina. Some of it is practice, but it produces a very nice cappo or latte. I have steamed on a Pavoni and had good results too. I have upgraded too and put my HX in storage!

Les

Well, nice to get some comments on that one, knew I would get someone dragged away from their couch or levers

Can of course like everyone else only speak for my own experiences, with the machines I have owned: Europic, Pavoni Pro, and the ones I've tried: Elektra microcasa a leva, Cimbalis Microcimbali, and Pocchinos lever machines. Have never tried a Olympia, however always dreaming of it!

Some specs:
Pavoni Europiccola Boiler-capacity: 0,8L, Heating Element: 1000w
Pavoni Pro: Boiler-capacity: 1,6 L, Heating Element: 1000w
Olympia Cremina: Boiler-capacity:1,6L, Heating Element: 1000w
Elektra Microcasa Boiler Capacity 1,8L Heating Element 800W
Gaggia Achille Boiler Capacity 0,8L, Heating element 1250W

I think most of the Home-HX are 1,3-1,8L boilers running on 1300-1700Watts ( The Valentina is 1,3L and 1300W)

I think most will agree steam-power is reflected by these parameters, and of course in the levers, where you don't have an autofill, the water-level and thereby the amount of steam in the boiler when you open the steam-valve, has something to say too.
This also shows that Achille should be able to produce more steam/time. (And that the Pro and Europic are using same heating element, thereby making the only explanation for better steaming on the Pro, be the more steam in the boiler when you start steaming with lets say 2/3 fill of boiler)

Microfoam is of course not only steam-power, it is, as Great Dane says, also practice, and dimensions of steam-tip, numbers of holes etc..

So, I never reached that completely perfect micro-foam ( not to say that I don't like the cappas I produce, the milk is just better on the Valentina) despite years of use, but of course it could be due to mal-practice, I have always eased myself, with that my fellow pavonistas in Copenhagen ( know four of them), never got there either , and that the texture of the espresso is better.

Anyone got pics of Latte-art with their levers?

Best Regards
Ulrikmo

[timo888]

Some specs:
Pavoni Europiccola Boiler-capacity: 0,8L, Heating Element: 1000w
Pavoni Pro: Boiler-capacity: 1,6 L, Heating Element: 1000w
Olympia Cremina: Boiler-capacity:1,6L, Heating Element: 1000w
Elektra Microcasa Boiler Capacity 1,8L Heating Element 800W
Gaggia Achille Boiler Capacity 0,8L, Heating element 1250W

More specs:
Ponte Vecchio Lusso: Capacity 3,0L Heating Element 1200W
Ponte Vecchio Export: Capacity 1,0L Heating Element 700W


The Achille's boiler is depleted only by steam and it has a 25% more powerful heating element; those factors are likely to make it a pretty good steamer despite the fact that its boiler is only half the size of the Cremina's and LP Pro's, merely the size of the Europiccola's. But the Bezzera-club-style Lusso, with its 3 liter boiler, is likely to be the steaming champion. Moreover, the spring levers (Elektra and Ponte Vecchio) can steam while the espresso is being extracted; thus, with a spring-lever, the barista can coordinate tasks so that milk and espresso meet at the perfect moment.

Regards
Timo

[HB]

Heating element wattage and boiler size don't say anything about the quality of the steam. HXs as a group have drier steam than the levers I've used. On the other hand, of the steamers I've used, one of the best is the diminutive Elektra Microcasa a Leva. The angle, velocity, dispersion pattern, and volume are perfect for making velvety cappuccinos.

[Trisha]

Hi, Ann!

I came across the Romantica over the weekend (yes, I do leave the house on rare occasion - my side trip made business in the city almost worthwhile)! I love the added touches they put into the machine! But the Elektra still takes my breath away, especially brand new, and with the Murano Glass ball on the top.

I know - that the asking retail is more than a new range is pretty disorienting!

Cappuccinos (even doubles) for two? Either the La Pavoni or the Elektra will be outstanding. Keep in mind both have exposed boilers that reach about 275 degrees F to touch - nasty and fast burns (something to consider if you have children) if you don't pay attention.

The Lusso is more machine (bigger boiler) and is offered in colors - and has a shielded boiler (http://www.pontevecchiosrl.it/index.htm); but we'd be getting too personal and presumptuous to rate something as subjective as where each one rates on eye candy appeal (no matter which one you succumb to, salve your conscience a bit by understanding these will each easily last 20-40 years with regular cleaning and a new set of gaskets every 5-10 years).

Have fun!

Trisha

[kikuchio]

More specs:
Ponte Vecchio Lusso: Capacity 3,0L Heating Element 1200W
Ponte Vecchio Export: Capacity 1,0L Heating Element 700W


The Achille's boiler is depleted only by steam and it has a 25% more powerful heating element; those factors are likely to make it a pretty good steamer despite the fact that its boiler is only half the size of the Cremina's and LP Pro's, merely the size of the Europiccola's. But the Bezzera-club-style Lusso, with its 3 liter boiler, is likely to be the steaming champion. Moreover, the spring levers (Elektra and Ponte Vecchio) can steam while the espresso is being extracted; thus, with a spring-lever, the barista can coordinate tasks so that milk and espresso meet at the perfect moment.

Regards
Timo

has anyone done a head to head comparison of the Lusso and Achille?

kikuchio

[timo888]

has anyone done a head to head comparison of the Lusso and Achille?

kikuchio

They are really so different that a head-to-head comparison is impossible. A comparison is likely to reveal more about the reviewer's predilections than it does about the machines. The main difference is that the Lusso is a spring-lever with probably a 6-7 bar brew pressure, the Achille a manual lever and so its brew pressure is really up to the barista. The Lusso is truly vintage in design: narrow-diameter basket, small water draw, horiztontally oriented Bezzera-club-style with a 3L boiler and thermosyphon group. The Achille is an HX with a standard 58mm commercial basket.

The Achille's primary competition among the levers would be the La Pavoni Professional, IMO. Both machines being manual levers, that comparsion would be closer to a head-to-head match-up. The La Pavoni Pro claims the ability to pull many shots in sequence, enough to lift it out of the "personal" machine category. The Achille claims the same. The boilers are both vertically oriented.

It might be interesting to pit the Lusso against the Elektra, but there the aesthetics loom large as a factor -- the Elektra attracts and repels purchasers by its baroque styling. I have to wonder how many people who find the Lusso's styling attractive would also find the Elektra aesthetically pleasing, and vice versa. They are also aimed at different duty-cycle niches.

Regards
Timo

[cannonfodder]

The Achille does a good job at steaming. My only real sore point about the machine was the froth aid tip. Use the inner sheath and you have a single hole steam wand. Put a real two hole steam wand on it and it would be an exquisite steamer.




you really can't do a head to head comparison between it and another machine due to the unique construction of the Achille. You would be comparing apples to oranges.

[HB]

They are really so different that a head-to-head comparison is impossible. A comparison is likely to reveal more about the reviewer's predilections than it does about the machines.

you really can't do a head to head comparison between it and another machine due to the unique construction of the Achille. You would be comparing apples to oranges.

Huh? Just because two machines don't produce similar results doesn't mean they can't be meaningfully compared. In fact, it's those differences in usage and results that are interesting. To help even out "reviewer's predilections", we involve others in the process with different backgrounds and skill levels. Blind taste tests are another tool. Finally, critical attributes of a good reviewer are an inquisitive and open mind. I'm glad to have had the opportunity to evaluate machines that were not at all what I expected (e.g., Cimbali Junior, Elektra A3, and Gaggia Achille); they broke me of my habit of looking at specifications first and the in-cup results second.

[mogogear]

BOOk'Em DANNO!!

[timo888]

Huh? Just because two machines don't produce similar results doesn't mean they can't be meaningfully compared. In fact, it's those differences in usage and results that are interesting. To help even out "reviewer's predilections", we involve others in the process with different backgrounds and skill levels. Blind taste tests are another tool. Finally, one critical attribute of a good reviewer is an inquisitive, open mind. I'm glad to have had the opportunity to evaluate machines that were not at all what I expected (e.g., Cimbali Junior, Elektra A3, and Gaggia Achille); they broke me of my habit of looking at specifications first and the in-cup results second.

That the Achille and the Lusso both have levers and pistons does not make them any more comparable than an Achille and a rotary pump machine. A spring lever and a manual lever are as different as a manual lever and a rotary pump machine. That is what I meant when I said it was impossible to do a head-to-head comparison.

Having multiple people involved underscores and draws attention to personal biases, which is good, but it does not eliminate the presence of bias and predilection. A comparsion might list a number of tasks and grade the machines on how well they perform each task. But who is to say how important the task is? How much weight it should be given? An example of a task: Steam Milk While Pulling Shot. The Lusso would get full marks here and the Achille would get no points. But some people would regard it as inconsequential that a machine cannot steam while pulling the shot; others would consider it important; and others would not care much one way or another.

Regards
Timo

[HB]

That is what I meant when I said it was impossible to do a head-to-head comparison... But some people would regard it as inconsequential that a machine cannot steam while pulling the shot; others would consider it important; and others would not care much one way or another.

Huh? I don't see a difference between a comparison and a head-to-head comparison. The purpose of an evaluation is to inform the reader of the machines' strengths and weaknesses, then they decide which choice best fits their needs. One espresso machine may outperform another in a given aspect, but I see no point in declaring a "winner" since it depends on the weight the buyer applies to each criteria.

[bill]

A spring lever and a manual lever are as different as a manual lever and a rotary pump machine.

I must beg to differ; in my opinion these are very similar machines. And I think most home baristas could care less if a machine can steam milk and brew espresso at the same time. My machine will but I've never been in such a hurry that I've done it.
Comparisons between different espresso machines are always interesting but mostly around their abilities to make coffee, but maybe I'm an exception.
Okay, who's got an Achille and a Lusso? Let the games begin!
Bill

[cannonfodder]

Huh? Just because two machines don't produce similar results doesn't mean they can't be meaningfully compared. In fact, it's those differences in usage and results that are interesting.

Point well taken, don't judge a book by its cover. We tend to try to compare the physical machine when we should be comparing the cup it produces. I can not add any insight since I have not used the Lusso but I can comment on the cup of the Achille:

I enjoyed the Achille from the first day of its arrival. Its espressos have the characteristic thick buttery mouthfeel that lever machines produce. Although I noticed less body than the shots from my Gaggia Factory, it compensates by producing more high notes and better separation in flavor. The Achille's pump can produce the volume of a true double extraction in one stroke and the espresso has more persistent crema. It also easily produces a brighter and cleaner cup than those of the La Pavoni style levers.

From the Gaggia Achille Buyers Guide Conclusion

Different machines make different shots. Part of the decision making process is to match your likes and dislikes to the characteristics a particular machine produces.

[kikuchio]

Huh? I don't see a difference between a comparison and a head-to-head comparison. The purpose of an evaluation is to inform the reader of the machines' strengths and weaknesses, then they decide which choice best fits their needs. One espresso machine may outperform another in a given aspect, but I see no point in declaring a "winner" since it depends on the weight the buyer applies to each criteria.

thank you,
this is sort of what i am wondering. ie - how well, or poorly, does each machine perform various functions. what are the strengths and weaknesses. perhaps it is not so important that a machine can steam at the same time a shot is being pulled as how well it steams when called upon to perform that function.

for those of us who have not had the opportunity to try a lot of different machines and are trying to figure out why we might find one or another more suitable these issues become meaningful.

kikuchio