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Why a pause during the HX flush?

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Link to "Why a pause during the HX flush?"by dawgcatching on Mon Dec 19, 2005 2:04 am

So, I gave the HX flush a try today on my Pulser. Turned the pump on, ran water through the PF (water was bubbling/gushing) and right at 24 seconds, the water became a steady stream, just as is shown in the HX Flush video. Unfortunately, the water then stopped flowing completely: I guess the boiler was empty?

After 45 seconds, I turned on the pump again, and the water was back to gushing/steaming. Is this normal? Should the boiler run dry after less that 30 seconds? And, can I trust the boiler to bring new, cold water from the reservoir up to the proper temperature within 30-45 seconds? Thanks!
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Link to "Why a pause during the HX flush?"by miKe mcKoffee on Mon Dec 19, 2005 2:39 am

The pause after dance is normal on a long HX cooling flush. Give it a second or two and flow will start again. I believe it's caused by the switch from super heated water aiding the outflow versus just the pump but could be mistaken on the why it happens.

You won't run the boiler dry flushing the group head. The brew head is fed from the HX (Heat Exchanger) tube which is heated by the boiler water, not fed from the boiler water itself.
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Link to "Why a pause during the HX flush?"by dawgcatching on Mon Dec 19, 2005 1:49 pm

Okay, I waited, and yes, the water started up again. I let it run about 3 seconds after the superheated water was gone, as a 1st experiment. I then dosed and tamped my PF and re-inserted (about 45 seconds later). The shot was very sour, indicating a low brewing temperature.

How do I get the temperature to where it should be? A 2 second flush is pretty short: that would put the temperature about 204, correct? The temperature tasted about 3 degrees sour. Changing the boiler pressure won't affect this process, will it? I am assuming the boiler pressure on an HX, if a flush is used, only corresponds to steaming pressure. If a flush isn't used, then the boiler pressure and HX output temperature have to correlate, correct?
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Link to "Why a pause during the HX flush?"by JohnD on Mon Dec 19, 2005 4:53 pm

Boiler pressure relates to boiler temperature I believe (but I'm a relative newbie).

I've been using a Pulser about 2 months and it makes great espresso. The pressure on mine is set just shy of .9 bar (using a portafilter pressure gauge) -- which is on the low end. I don't think it is very useful to guess-timate the length of flush vis a vis brew head temperature. If you have no way of taking temperatures or measuring pressure -- experiment... e.g. wait longer before pulling your shot OR make the flush shorter.

I pull about 6 or 7 ounces of water , which is about 1 or 2 seconds past a 'calm flow'. It takes me about a minute, maybe a little more, before I'm pulling the shot. For the second shot, I flush for 2 seconds only before inserting the portafilter -- and then it is probably another minute and a half (as I'm preparing cup, pouring and steaming milk etc) before pulling the second shot. both are great.

I think at some point you need to develop a routine where you don't have to watch the clock -- as if you are worried about times every time you are making espresso -- it takes the fun out of it! There is some leeway in there for making good espresso. If you cannot make good espresso by adjusting the flush or wait times -- then you might look to another variable.

My 2 cents (or three! )
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Link to "Why a pause during the HX flush?"by miKe mcKoffee on Mon Dec 19, 2005 6:09 pm

Dawgcatching, have you read, re-read, and re-read again everything on this site pertaining to HX surfing? That's what I did before my first HX machined arrived 10 days ago. Especially the Love HX and Chris talks about the Flush & Go technique detailed I believe in Bricoletta review. I've been waiting for the Guru's to answer but will give my two cents worth. I have had the advantage of use of a Thermofilter to dial in HX surf, pulling literally hundreds of test shots the last week and a half. It has greatly speeded my learning curve, hugely. A fellow home roaster espresso enthusiast stopped by Saturday to check out the new Bric'. He has a boiler PIDd Silvia, same as me. I demonstrated how accurately temps can be hit. From idle I did my cooling flush, waited during PF build time (approx 45 sec) and asked him to pick a temp between 198 and 206F. IIRC he said 202 so I started the flush listening to the dance (not watching) started my fast paced one one thousand to four one thousand, locked in the Thermofilter and missed, only hit 202.3F. :wink: He was duly impressed. :D Then proceeded to make his Purplemountain Kona cap... no waiting involved.

Each machine is different. And yes, boiler pressure makes a difference in the surf, especially if going by time. I've played with boiler settings from 1.2-1.4bar down to .85-1.05bar. Settled in on 1-1.2bar for best compromise between steam power and too long a surf. But I don't go by time, the machine will tell you when it's ready once you get to know its behavior.

I'm using about 10oz from idle flush to cool the HX and equalize the group head temp, 16 count after flash. From here I don't go by time anymore. I go by boiler cycling which is by sound or gauge. The initial cycle from flush will end rather quickly then kick back on in about 30 sec for it's 5-6sec heat. About 5sec later, as the sound of the heating boiler subsides, ready for flush and go. Flush 'till end of flash (not a dance cause it's not through a PF) will yield 206F. (If you don't get any flash you haven't waited long enough and HX not up to temp.) Each one one thousand down 1F. Immediately after a shot I always screen flush and PF blank PF wiggle (which averages about 2.5oz) which kicks on a heater cycle. Then proceed to building shot, heater will cycle on again same 30 sec or so later, same wait for boiler heating sound to subside ('bout 5sec) and ready for next flush and go.

Your Pulser will likely take longer to recovery between shots or after HX cooling flush but I suspect a similar procedure ought to work. Since you don't have a boiler pressure gauge go by it's sound, it's what I do anyway. After initial cooling flush from idle listen for the boiler to kick off, listen for it to kick back on and off then wait another 5 to 10 sec and try flush and go pulls. On the Bric' I've determined with 1-1.2bar starting flush and go any faster than 35sec after end of cooling flush or between shot screen flush/PF wiggle is to quick and temp drops off using same counts. With your lower wattage heater I'd suspect you minimum time would have to be longer.

While I'm sure many people find the flush and wait to come back up to temp method works for them, I prefer the simpler to me flush & go very accurate, pulling shot within 5sec of the flush & go.

Hope this helps more than confuses. And as always, YMMV!
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Link to "Why a pause during the HX flush?"by miKe mcKoffee on Mon Dec 19, 2005 6:12 pm

JohnD wrote:Boiler pressure relates to boiler temperature I believe (but I'm a relative newbie).

I've been using a Pulser about 2 months and it makes great espresso. The pressure on mine is set just shy of .9 bar (using a portafilter pressure gauge) -- which is on the low end.
I think you're confusing shot pressure with boiler pressure. A PF pressure gauge measures shot pressure, which would be in the 9bar range yes, 0.9bar would be low for a Mokha Pot!
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Link to "Why a pause during the HX flush?"by JohnD on Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:13 pm

Ooops, thanks Mike for setting me straight - so shot pressure, I presume, is really determined by the strength of the pump.

Dawg... you having any better luck?
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Link to "Why a pause during the HX flush?"by dawgcatching on Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:13 pm

JohnD wrote:Ooops, thanks Mike for setting me straight - so shot pressure, I presume, is really determined by the strength of the pump.

Dawg... you having any better luck?


Yes, somewhat. I started using a 3-second flush after the HX superheated water is flushed, and got a very smooth, neutral shot. Not real flavorful though (the beans, Victrola's Straightliner, are about 1 week old and definitely on the decline). I am pretty sure I can do better. Unfortunately, I can still taste a drop in temp stability over the life of the shot: the last 3rd of the shot tastes a tad sour, like the temperature declined. During the flush, I am still having trouble finding the end of the superheated HX water. My pump is so noisy that I can't always hear the steam releasing (and note when it stops). This has caused more than one instance of an excessively long flush. I don't have a single PF, and it is harder to see with a double. I think that with a naked PF, I will be able to see it much better.

A new problem is that after the HX flush, the steam pressure seems to be down. When steaming a 6oz cappa, the steam pressure isn't spinning and folding the milk well. Anyone else noticed this?

Also, I took some measurements, and for my elevation (3500 feet) superheated water from the HX doesn't seem to be as big of a problem as in lower-elevation locales. The boiling point of water here is just over 205F, so even if the water is at the flash point, it is at an acceptable brewing temperature for several blends. People who are seeing their HX idle at 210F must live near sea level. I have noticed that when I flush the HX, my thermometer reads 199.3F (into a styrofoam cup) at the start of the flush. By the time I hit the end of the superheated water, 24 or so seconds into the flush, the cup temp reads 198.3 or so. The biggest difference may be the steady stream of water, rather than a water steam mixture, which would likely not result in as smooth of an extraction.
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Link to "Why a pause during the HX flush?"by miKe mcKoffee on Thu Dec 22, 2005 8:22 pm

Oops, I forget how much noiser vibes are than rotary. I flush into a SS 1 cup measuring cup (came with Caffe' Rosto but I roast by greens weight not volume) angled slightly so the sound is reflected towards me, helps hear the flash, not flushing through PF for the flush & go. May or may not work strictly by sound with a vibe depending on one's hearing, haven't had one to try.

Temp drop of a degree or two F during shot seems to be normal with HX, at least that's what I've seen using Thermofilter to test shot temps on my Bricoletta. If shot too cool, same still goes, reduce count from flash if using flush & go. If highest shot temp right at end of flash is not hot enough increase boiler pressure. If using flush & recovery, wait longer and or flush less.
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