Why not Synesso?

[svblue]

hi hi hi... I'm a long term coffee addict and straight double shot slurper. I had a Pavoni piston for many years and loved it despite its temperature and short range problems... ok. it wasn't the best but it looked cool

Have been reading and reviewing for awhile and thinking... is there any reason not to buy a Synesso? If money weren't an object what would you want to live with? I've never had a bad shot from a Synesso bar but then there aren't many out there and they tend to be run by extremely good baristas. Any thoughts?

[Niko]

If money weren't an object what would you want to live with?

A Two group Mistral...
hey you asked!

My real thoughts on the Synesso is that it's a beautiful machine but you better have the room for it, they were never intended for home use since they're a little on the largish size.

[pdx]

if you're in Portland & want to try a Synesso pm me. I have a 110v one group.

[luca]

I loved working on a Synesso, but I wouldn't want one at home. As Niko said, they are a bit on the large side.

Personally, I think that they look cool, but all of that stainless is a bit irritating to keep spic and span. Even dust settling down on the machine over a few days makes it look kind of bad. That's not much of a problem if you have staff in your cafe to give it a wipe-down as part of your end-of-day procedure, but I would find it irritating at home.

I find the steam lever on the side to be a bit awkward, particularly with that large steam wand looping around. I would prefer a steam knob or even a lever on the front of the machine. The PID position is fine if you're only looking at once every fifty coffees, but at home I'd prefer to have a PID readout that I could see easily. Frankly, the fit and finish are a bit of a disappointment to me. Yes, it's all lovely thick stainless, but most of the people who use the machine at my former workplace have cut themselves on some part of it at some stage. Presumably without the hustle and bustle of a cafe around you, you would be less likely to make a careless slip at home ;P Still, I'd just prefer to have a machine without sharp edges to start off with.

The drain box needs to be kept clear, as it would with any plumbed out machine, particularly if the drain tube runs horizontally across the bench top. However, the drain box is a bit harder to clean out on a regular basis than it would be on another machine. On most of the commercial machines that I have seen, removing the drip tray gives you access to the drain box, so it is a pretty trivial task to scoop out the crap that is in there once a shift or so. On the Cyncra, the lowest point of the drain box, where all of the ground coffee, etc, accumulates, is at the back of the machine. To clean it out, you have to remove the whole side panel. Truth be told, that probably only adds an extra five or ten minutes to the procedure, but you do have to have somewhere to put the whole side panel of the machine, you have to keep a wrench handy and you have to keep track of 12-16 nuts and washers (can't remember how many off the top of my head). For this reason, I think that people tend to neglect this rather important part of machine maintenance. It's irritating as hell when the drain clogs up and dirty brown water flows out from under the machine. Just the other week, I was in a friend's cafe when it happened to them and I actually ended up giving the barista a hand.

The machine seems to have a lot of cup real estate on top, which is great for a cafe, but you would be putting out a fair amount of heat at home. I don't like the standard Synesso steam tips, but it's not a big deal to switch them to a LM tip. The current drip tray grate seems to encourage water pooling on top of it; go for the old wire one if you can get it. From memory, the current drip tray has been updated, but the old one could actually spill over onto the counter if you put a lot of water down it, such as if you were doing a lot of backflushing, or if you ran the water spout directly into the tray to rinse something.

We had a few problems with the brain box and the brew levers as well, but those problems seemed to be pretty freaky. I doubt that they have occurred with very many, if any, other people. But I think that it's fair to put to rest any notions that Synessos are invincible.

In saying all of the above, I'm just trying to answer the question - I don't want it to sound like I don't like Synessos! Still, I'd rather have a GS3 for home, but in a few years, once they have all of the little bugs fixed ;P I'd also like to have something like a Robur next to it.

Cheers,

Luca

[pdx]

I find the steam lever on the side to be a bit awkward, particularly with that large steam wand looping around. I would prefer a steam knob or even a lever on the front of the machine.

I like the lever on the side- its much easier to wipe clean than machines I've had that have flat surfaces facing the coffee prep area with protrusions to wipe around. Totally personal preference, though.

The PID position is fine if you're only looking at once every fifty coffees, but at home I'd prefer to have a PID readout that I could see easily.

I thought this might be an issue for me, but it hasn't been. I always use the same blend (hairbender) & only change temps a couple of times a year as the blend changes. I don't believe Billy Wilson has changed the temp on his pid since we installed it on his Linea last year. When I do change temps access to the box isn't a problem even with the short legs. I opted for the raised drip tray, which I'm sure helps.

Frankly, the fit and finish are a bit of a disappointment to me. Yes, it's all lovely thick stainless, but most of the people who use the machine at my former workplace have cut themselves on some part of it at some stage.

Really? Where? I've not had that.

The drain box needs to be kept clear, as it would with any plumbed out machine, particularly if the drain tube runs horizontally across the bench top. However, the drain box is a bit harder to clean out on a regular basis than it would be on another machine.

I'm sure this is a bigger deal in a cafe than in the home. I've been running my Synesso for a couple of years now & haven't had that happen. I do dump a small pitcher of joeglo mix down the drain every weekend when I do chemical backflushes. Also at home you don't have other people dumping who-knows-what down the drain when you're not looking.

One thing I appreciate about the drain design on the Synesso is how the gutter runs directly below all the valves, manifolds, & plumbing connections. My last machine wouldn't have flooded my kitchen if it was built this way.

Truth be told, that probably only adds an extra five or ten minutes to the procedure, but you do have to have somewhere to put the whole side panel of the machine, you have to keep a wrench handy and you have to keep track of 12-16 nuts and washers (can't remember how many off the top of my head). For this reason, I think that people tend to neglect this rather important part of machine maintenance. It's irritating as hell when the drain clogs up and dirty brown water flows out from under the machine.

The 4 bolts on the side panels can be kept "finger tight"- this is how mine came from the factory.

I don't like the standard Synesso steam tips, but it's not a big deal to switch them to a LM tip.

I know they have 2 tip options from the factory, but as you say they're standard to LM tips.

The current drip tray grate seems to encourage water pooling on top of it; go for the old wire one if you can get it. From memory, the current drip tray has been updated, but the old one could actually spill over onto the counter if you put a lot of water down it, such as if you were doing a lot of backflushing, or if you ran the water spout directly into the tray to rinse something.

Yeah, I did manage to get an old wire tray- I like it better for sure. They did redesign the drip tray this year to work better, but I've not really looked at one. Again, at home I've never had a problem with mine.

We had a few problems with the brain box and the brew levers as well, but those problems seemed to be pretty freaky. I doubt that they have occurred with very many, if any, other people. But I think that it's fair to put to rest any notions that Synessos are invincible.

I don't know how old yours is, but before mine was made (#135 or so?) they redesigned the steam valve & group lever assembly. Since mine was made they've made a few other changes which they offer as upgrades to previous machines (drip tray, electronics change to eliminate the fan, 0.1 degree resolution, etc.

I agree they're certainly not invincible, but in my experience they're much simpler to work on than other machines I've worked on. My machine had a chattering in the brew pressure gauge. The factory was really helpful in resolving it- they actually mailed me another pump & motor to use in troubleshooting. The problem ended up being the capillary tube. They re-spec'd a different size & length, sent me a new one, & use the new size on new machines.

If you're mechanically inclined at all they're a dream to work on- even nut sizes are fairly consistent. The (free) repair guide is well illustrated & clearly written.

In saying all of the above, I'm just trying to answer the question - I don't want it to sound like I don't like Synessos! Still, I'd rather have a GS3 for home, but in a few years, once they have all of the little bugs fixed ;P

I think this is a really big issue. The GS3 does a few things to accomplish its small size which are innovative, but also unproven. Nestling the motor & pump between two hot boilers seems risky to me. It sounds like you have to rely on the distributor for service advice, which seems much more variable than simply being able to call the designer of the machine for advice over the phone (as with Synesso.) I don't think I would want to buy one of the first GS3s on the market, but I certainly wouldn't want to be the distributor for them.

I'd also like to have something like a Robur next to it.

Agreed for sure, though if I were to go back to a hopper & doser type grinder I would look at the Anfims. Its amazing how much cleaner the Albina Press's Anfim is than their Robur.

[zin1953]

A Two group Mistral...
hey you asked!

You and me both!

[Psyd]

I loved working on a Synesso, but I wouldn't want one at home. they are a bit on the large side.
I'd rather have a GS3 for home, I'd also like to have something like a Robur next to it.

Uhm, yeah. the Robur is like the Dark Tower of grinders, and you'd be OK with that, but the Synesso is 'a bit on the large side'? Tell ya what. If anyone ever burdens you with a Synesso, I'll take it off your hand for ya! It's a bit on the small side, compared to the Raised Group Astoria twin I have! Pretty much any single group machine will be a step down (size-wise, that is) from where I'm at now, so bring on the Cyncra. I'm already plumbed, and the 220V is just sitting there waiting...

(Spare espresso machine mister? Spare espresso machine? Hey, lady! Can I talk to you ferraminnit?) ; >

[luca]

Psyd, Pdx,

I have to say that I breathed a bit of a sigh of relief when I read your posts. I half thought that I would get random flaming for daring to say anything negative about Synesso. I'm glad that we can have a sensible exchange on this topic.

Uhm, yeah. the Robur is like the Dark Tower of grinders, and you'd be OK with that, but the Synesso is 'a bit on the large side'? Tell ya what. If anyone ever burdens you with a Synesso, I'll take it off your hand for ya! It's a bit on the small side, compared to the Raised Group Astoria twin I have! Pretty much any single group machine will be a step down (size-wise, that is) from where I'm at now, so bring on the Cyncra. I'm already plumbed, and the 220V is just sitting there waiting...

(Spare espresso machine mister? Spare espresso machine? Hey, lady! Can I talk to you ferraminnit?) ; >

LOL; that's actually pretty funny upon re-reading it.

Still, I can carry a robur and am insane/motivated enough to lug one around with me to a beach house or a friend's place or whatever. The GS3 also strikes me as something that can be moved. However, even I draw the line at trying to move a single group Synesso and set up some sort of flojet system for it.

If I'm ever burdened with a single group Synesso, I'm keeping it! (Or selling it for a GS3 ;P) Like I said, I was trying to answer the OP's questions, but I actually like the Cyncras.

I like the lever on the side- its much easier to wipe clean than machines I've had that have flat surfaces facing the coffee prep area with protrusions to wipe around. Totally personal preference, though.

Exactly - each to his or her own.

"The PID position is fine if you're only looking at once every fifty coffees, but at home I'd prefer to have a PID readout that I could see easily."

I thought this might be an issue for me, but it hasn't been. I always use the same blend (hairbender) & only change temps a couple of times a year as the blend changes. I don't believe Billy Wilson has changed the temp on his pid since we installed it on his Linea last year. When I do change temps access to the box isn't a problem even with the short legs. I opted for the raised drip tray, which I'm sure helps.

It's certainly not a big issue, but, all other things being equal I would prefer the PID readout to be more easily accessible. I used to look at the reflection on the SS bench top at work, so I suppose a creative solution might be put a mirror underneath the machine.

"Frankly, the fit and finish are a bit of a disappointment to me. Yes, it's all lovely thick stainless, but most of the people who use the machine at my former workplace have cut themselves on some part of it at some stage."

Really? Where? I've not had that.

The part that has caused the most grief is the sides of the drip tray. There is a bit of space between the cup retaining rail and the steam lever, but people have also cut themselves by pulling back on the lever to cut off the steam and dragging the back of their hand along the cup retaining rail. I haven't conducted an exhaustive survey of the machine by running my hand along all possible edges, but there might well be more sharp edges. I'm not the most graceful person in the world, so I presumed that it might just be my own clumsiness until others mentioned that they had also cut themselves on it. Presumably the thing to do would be to grind down the drip tray edges slightly, or to put some electrical tape over them, but I'm no longer working on that machine, so I haven't put much thought into it.

"The drain box needs to be kept clear, as it would with any plumbed out machine, particularly if the drain tube runs horizontally across the bench top. However, the drain box is a bit harder to clean out on a regular basis than it would be on another machine."

I'm sure this is a bigger deal in a cafe than in the home. I've been running my Synesso for a couple of years now & haven't had that happen. I do dump a small pitcher of joeglo mix down the drain every weekend when I do chemical backflushes. Also at home you don't have other people dumping who-knows-what down the drain when you're not looking.

One thing I appreciate about the drain design on the Synesso is how the gutter runs directly below all the valves, manifolds, & plumbing connections. My last machine wouldn't have flooded my kitchen if it was built this way.

All good points. I think it's probably worthwhile reiterating that if you're cutting a hole in your bench for the drain tube, it's well and truly worthwhile getting the machine in before you do it and positioning the hole to avoid having long sections of the tube running horizontally across the table.

If you're mechanically inclined at all they're a dream to work on- even nut sizes are fairly consistent. The (free) repair guide is well illustrated & clearly written.

For sure, and there are a lot more positive points to the machine than that, but the question was "is there any reason not to buy a Synesso," so I have specifically only presented one side of the story, and I think that I was pretty explicit about that. Not that I think you're missing the point - just that I want to reiterate that my post was to answer the question, not to randomly slag Synesso.

I think this is a really big issue. The GS3 does a few things to accomplish its small size which are innovative, but also unproven. Nestling the motor & pump between two hot boilers seems risky to me. It sounds like you have to rely on the distributor for service advice, which seems much more variable than simply being able to call the designer of the machine for advice over the phone (as with Synesso.) I don't think I would want to buy one of the first GS3s on the market, but I certainly wouldn't want to be the distributor for them.

I don't think that the motor is much of an issue; I have seen plenty of commercial machines with internal motors and pumps right next to the boiler - but I freely admit that I'm no technician. If it's a big deal, you could presumably always mount it in the cabinet underneath the machine.

The Australian LM distributors are pretty good, plus there are a whole bunch of independent technicians around that are great at servicing LM. I haven't had any dealings with Franke/ESI, but I have heard good things. The Australian Synesso distributors are also pretty good. And, yes, it's lovely to be able to talk to Mark, Sandy and Caleb. I suspect that it's pretty hard to go wrong with either.

Agreed for sure, though if I were to go back to a hopper & doser type grinder I would look at the Anfims. Its amazing how much cleaner the Albina Press's Anfim is than their Robur.

I'm really interested to try out the Anfims at some stage. For a while it was "conical, conical, conical," then out of nowhere all of a sudden this flat burr grinder starts getting good press. I remain a little skeptical. A friend of mine bought/imported two of them for his cafe on the advice that they grind well, are very clean and the steps are small enough not to be a problem. Shortly before opening, he decided that the steps weren't good enough and that he needed to make his own stepless adjustment system. I'll have to weasel my way behind his bar when we're both next around.

There are a few alternatives. The Compak K10 is pretty clean. I don't know if they're available up north, but the BNZ conical is probably the cleanest and straightest dosing grinder that I have used - you do have to retrofit your own stepless adjustment mechanism, though. The NS/LM rebranded conicals also struck me as pretty good. Then there's the fiorenzato doge, and probably a million other grinders ... if you want a decent conical grinder, it certainly seems as though there's a bit of choice!

I haven't had too much of a problem keeping things clean with a Robur under low usage conditions, but the mini electronic style dosing system coming out still looks very interesting.

Cheers,

Luca

[cannonfodder]

If cash was no option, I think a Kees van der Westen would get my kitchen space.

Something like the speedster


Or the Mirage Idrocompresso Veloce


Photos from http://www.keesvanderweston.com

[cannonfodder]

Cannot forget those Elektra's, beautiful machines and they make awesome espresso. It would be wonderful to have one or two.


That's right, I have one or two on the espresso bar.

[svblue]

Wow... I never expected such a great response. So many great views and experiences. Beginning to think that this is really an art project. It's like asking who's better, Monet or Gauguin? Thank you all.

Do you all leave your machines on all the time? Or plan ahead to warm them up for 30 minutes before you make a cup?

[pdx]

Do you all leave your machines on all the time? Or plan ahead to warm them up for 30 minutes before you make a cup?

If I'm leaving town for a day or more I'll shut mine down, otherwise its always on. We've been using the steam wand to heat bottles for my son- he has a Pavlovian love for the Synesso by this point. I actually made him a half-scale toy Synesso for christmas.

When I had an Isomac Tea I left it on all the time & lived to regret it (flooded kitchen.) Before that I had a La Pavoni, which didn't take long to warm up at all.

[cannonfodder]

That has been debated quite a bit. Leave it on or turn it off? and Commercial espresso machines in the home

On a commercial machine, be it single group like the Cimbali Jr or Elektra A3 or a multi group, I would (and do) leave it on 24/7. The warm-up time is so long on these (several hours) it is just not worth turning off for me. I would always be waiting for the machine to heat. On a smaller home machine like the (insert name here) will heat in around an hour so you can turn them off and on. I turn my office machine on when I get to work and off when I leave.

[HB]

Do you all leave your machines on all the time?

No. According to the poll, 60% of the respondents turn off their espresso machines. This and many more fun facts to know and share are found in the site's FAQs and Favorites Digest.

[jesawdy]

I actually made him a half-scale toy Synesso for christmas.

Now, that I want to see....

[old442]

If cash was no option, I think a Kees van der Westen would get my kitchen space.

Something like the speedster

I know it's beyond what I would spend, but does anybody know what the approximate price range is for a Speedster?

[HB]

I recall reading about quotes for the Speedster in the $13K range, but that was years ago.

[pdx]

Now, that I want to see....

Here it is. The group & steam levers move & the pf is held on by magnets.

[svblue]

WOW! Ben? Are you taking orders?

[Jacob]

Super cool - much better than plastic guns