Why not a ristretto?

[psycho_supreme]

Hey guys,

Probably my first in-depth post here, I'm usually hangin' on the cg forums, but sometimes you need a second opinion!

Theres something I just really need to get to the bottom of. Whats the point of a straight, weak shot of espresso, or a lungo shot? Why isn't everybody striving to pull the gloppy, thick, flavor-exploding ristretto?

I mean, not only does this pour look absolutely fantastic, and taste fantastic, it IS fantastic!

I was originally thinking of making this a longer post, but I have decided to leave it there for now....

Feedback guys?

[another_jim]

It's different horses for different courses. Ristrettos tend to be sweeter and mellower tasting than regular shots. This suits traditional espresso blends of medium or medium-dark roasted heavy bodied beans. If the blend's flavor is from lighter roasted washed or otherwise light bodied, acidic and aromatic beans, ristrettos tend to muffle the point of the blend. In Italy, the shots tend to get shorter as one goes south, to go along with the darker roasts and heavier bodied beans.

Think I'll pull myself a nice ristretto Harar.

[psycho_supreme]

single origin ristretto?

I've been taught to stay away from single origin espresso as the brewing process is too complex to display the qualities of a single origin. I've learned, or so I thought, to stick with a blend, unless of course your using a single origin with multiple roast levels blended in?

Whats the story Jim?

[bcquinn1]

I think ristrettos can be very limiting, and in many instances, are often compensating for poor green quality. Or, put differently, ristrettos often compensate for darker roasts, which are often compensating for poor green quality.

A traditional double - by traditional, I mean ~1.75 ounces of liquid pulled in ~25 seconds - pulled from high quality, lightly roasted beans can offer incredible nuances that make ristrettos taste dull and flat in comparison. You can get higher-toned flavors and aromas of citrus, berries, and flowers that are just crushed by the overwhelming mid-tone flavors in ristretto pulls. You appreciate the sense of balance and range in the coffee as well - those higher notes playing against the more "typical" flavors of chocolate, nuts, and tobaccos in the coffee.

I made a point about green quality, because ristrettos can also smooth out defects or detracting notes in a coffee. You can take a funky, fermented Yirg or an overwhelmingly earthy Sumatran, and knock down those flavors by roasting dark. You can also knock them down by overdosing the basket and tightening the grind. That high note of wild strawberry funk, and that deep note of wood and earth get knocked down - because, in my opinion and experience, the ristretto pull tends to underextract the higher and lower notes in a coffee.

And some coffees, in my opinion - even high quality coffees - taste terrible when pulled as a ristretto. Terroir's Southern Italian (yes, I mean the darker roast) tastes like ash when I push the dose into the 18-21g range. At 16g, you get a nice mellow cup with some great flavors of pecans and hazlenuts, with some chocolate and citrus on the edges. And in no way does that cup lack in flavor or intensity. It's just different.

I'd also say that in my experience, darker roasts and tighter pulls are actually easier to do at home than the more traditional double. Paradoxically, I find ristrettos FAR more tolerant of distribution issues than lighter doses and lighter roasts.

When I first got into higher quality espresso, I used to really like ristrettos. Lately, I find them to be pretty boring. I don't know if you're into wine at all, but for me, ristrettos remind of the whole California cab craze 10-15 years ago. You had these wines coming out with incredible body and extraction - thick, inky, tongue-coating wines. And some of those wines were great, but many were really relying on extraction to make up for lackluster / boring fruit flavors. They turned my head at the time because of the mouthfeel, but as time went by, I started to really appreciate the incredible finesse and clarity that a great Bordeaux or Burgundian wine offers, or a top quality California Pinot Noir. The latter three wines, for me, are the best analogy for what a great traditional double offers.

So, no, I don't think ristrettos should be the default pour at all.

[psycho_supreme]

So, no, I don't think ristrettos should be the default pour at all.

Ahhh, love to see I have stirred up some controversy!

Thank you for throwing in your opinion, you have definitely broadened my knowledge, and have given me a reason to play with roast levels, dose, etc and experiment.

yay for the complex world of espresso!

['Q']

Hmmm... this may be some of the reason I've not been as pleased with the taste of my shots lately. Don't get me wrong, they're good, but... I may have inadvertantly wandered into the area of "too ristretto" and need to back up a bit. I've been pulling some pretty thick stuff, but not enjoying the drink as much as I used to and not really thinking about it. When I get home I'm gonna step back and shoot for 1.75-2.00 oz again and see if it's more of that taste that got me hooked.

[Rainman]

single origin ristretto?

I've been taught to stay away from single origin espresso as the brewing process is too complex to display the qualities of a single origin. I've learned, or so I thought, to stick with a blend, unless of course your using a single origin with multiple roast levels blended in?

Whats the story Jim?

Oh, man- one of the FEW things I actually get right (I can count those on just a couple of fingers) with respect to home roasting and making a ristretto- the Harrars rule.. to say nothing of the Yemen Moka San'ani. I've never tasted a better shot anywhere (maybe a personal opinion, though).

Ray

[luca]

Call me nuts, but I think that the machine makes a pretty huge difference. I had a silvia/rocky combo and it was almost impossible to make a decent espresso, so I used a lot of double ristrettos as a base for milk drinks. Now I have a domestic e61 hx machine and a mazzer mini. I tend to go for something like 45mL in 22 or 23 seconds ... so an espresso cut short. To my taste buds, the first 20mL of a pour on domestic e61 machines is quite gloopy and ristretto-like. The next 20mL brings out a lot more of the origin flavours. The last 20mL will start to get more watery and will go blonde; there seems to me to be a fair bit of variation amongst prosumer machines in how early this happens - this was one of the deciding factors in choosing my machine.

The espresso-cut-short is child's play to get right, so I don't bother subjecting myself to the rigours of shooting for the full 60mL. Work is a different story. The LM FB80 that I get to use makes getting the full 60mL double espresso easy. The ramp-up at the beginning seems to take a few seconds less than on most e61s, so the SO flavours taste less "squashed" or "masked" into a generic, gloopy chocolatey espresso to me. There also seems to be less of a difference in flavour between successive thirds of an espresso shot than there would be with a domestic e61.

None of this is to say that you can't create a fantastic full-length espresso on a domestic machine. Just that it seems to me to be harder than on something as outrageously luxurious as a FB80. When I only have five minutes before I need to catch the bus to uni, I'm more than happy to just grab a double cut short and bolt. Conversely, at work one of the first things that I do is to pull shots until I am satisfied that I'm going to get close to the full-length double espresso from a double handle. I always find it quite funny that whenever I offer to let a home barista pull a shot at work they seem overwhelmed, as though it is going to be harder than at home.

... but, of course, you can't consider everything in isolation. It so happens that the blend that I use at work tastes significantly more impressive as an espresso than as a ristretto, so I often end up convincing people to order espresso instead of a ristretto. At home, I have no problems in admiting that every now and then I bugger up a home roast and it needs to be crushed down to a ristretto to make it drinkable. And I have had excellent commercial blends that simply tasted better as a ristretto than as an espresso.

I hope that's food for thought,

Luca

[another_jim]

single origin ristretto?

I've been taught to stay away from single origin espresso as the brewing process is too complex to display the qualities of a single origin. I've learned, or so I thought, to stick with a blend, unless of course your using a single origin with multiple roast levels blended in?

Whats the story Jim?

Harar is only technically an SO; in truth, it (and Yemens) are the coffees whose balance all the espresso blends try to approach.

Real SOs, i.e. coffees that are unbalanced as espresso, taste awful when they are pulled wrong, but can be wonderful when done right. Most commercial blends aren't on this knife edge. However, baristas diagnostic skills are improving rapidly, and I see a lot of SOs being pulled now. It's a question of tasting a standard shot, and knowing, from the way it tastes, what to change, and how. This is, in theory, no more complicated than tasting a soup and knowing it needs more salt or pepper. The trick is knowing where the salt and pepper shakers are on an espresso machine.

['Q']

Just a quick follow-up to my previous post:

Got home from work and adjusted the grinder a little coarser, pulled one double that was still a little low in volume. Dumped it into a cold mug with ice, milk, agave nectar, and topped with whipped cream for "Mrs. Q." I tasted it before condemning it to the mug and it was pretty good. A little coarser on the grind and pulled another that was just about right at the 1.75oz mark and... yep... that's better. I guess subconsciously I've been pushing for a thicker, more syrup-like, pour and not paying attention to what the taste had been telling me.

By the way, if you don't know about agave nectar. I happened across it at the market awhile back and it is an excellent natural sweetener, not sugary tasting or imparting any other off flavors. It's not as thick as honey and doesn't crystallize while stored. Made from the agave plant, as in tequila! I highly recommend it for those that like, or serve those that like, sweetener for their coffee.

[Jasonian]

I think ristrettos can be very limiting, and in many instances, are often compensating for poor green quality. Or, put differently, ristrettos often compensate for darker roasts, which are often compensating for poor green quality.

A traditional double - by traditional, I mean ~1.75 ounces of liquid pulled in ~25 seconds - pulled from high quality, lightly roasted beans can offer incredible nuances that make ristrettos taste dull and flat in comparison. You can get higher-toned flavors and aromas of citrus, berries, and flowers that are just crushed by the overwhelming mid-tone flavors in ristretto pulls. You appreciate the sense of balance and range in the coffee as well - those higher notes playing against the more "typical" flavors of chocolate, nuts, and tobaccos in the coffee.

I made a point about green quality, because ristrettos can also smooth out defects or detracting notes in a coffee. You can take a funky, fermented Yirg or an overwhelmingly earthy Sumatran, and knock down those flavors by roasting dark. You can also knock them down by overdosing the basket and tightening the grind. That high note of wild strawberry funk, and that deep note of wood and earth get knocked down - because, in my opinion and experience, the ristretto pull tends to underextract the higher and lower notes in a coffee.

And some coffees, in my opinion - even high quality coffees - taste terrible when pulled as a ristretto. Terroir's Southern Italian (yes, I mean the darker roast) tastes like ash when I push the dose into the 18-21g range. At 16g, you get a nice mellow cup with some great flavors of pecans and hazlenuts, with some chocolate and citrus on the edges. And in no way does that cup lack in flavor or intensity. It's just different.

I'd also say that in my experience, darker roasts and tighter pulls are actually easier to do at home than the more traditional double. Paradoxically, I find ristrettos FAR more tolerant of distribution issues than lighter doses and lighter roasts.

When I first got into higher quality espresso, I used to really like ristrettos. Lately, I find them to be pretty boring. I don't know if you're into wine at all, but for me, ristrettos remind of the whole California cab craze 10-15 years ago. You had these wines coming out with incredible body and extraction - thick, inky, tongue-coating wines. And some of those wines were great, but many were really relying on extraction to make up for lackluster / boring fruit flavors. They turned my head at the time because of the mouthfeel, but as time went by, I started to really appreciate the incredible finesse and clarity that a great Bordeaux or Burgundian wine offers, or a top quality California Pinot Noir. The latter three wines, for me, are the best analogy for what a great traditional double offers.

So, no, I don't think ristrettos should be the default pour at all.

...Who are you? Where have you been? And all this time, I've felt so alone.

[psycho_supreme]

haha nice follow up Jasonian, I got a little giggle out of it.

On, a serious note, I'm totally blow away by how many people don't actually prefer the ristretto. I mean, all this espresso porn going around is all for the ristrettos. Maybe we need a little balance here.....

[bcquinn1]

...Who are you? Where have you been? And all this time, I've felt so alone.

Ha ha. Just an average home user who got hooked (and educated... and opinionated, I guess) at the original Rao's in Amherst and at Simon's in Cambridge. I've been lucky to have fairly easy access to excellent espresso. And the problem is that if you haven't had a good normale shot pulled for you, I think it's very natural to default to the ristretto. It's a very forgiving technique that produces predictable, if often bland results. And I think that predilection is reinforced in these forums, where the majority sings glorious praise to "thick" "gloppy" "honey-like" "yummy" shots.

But looking past peer influence, why do so many people gravitate to that profile? You can't argue taste - so apparently some drinkers just prefer that flavor profile. But the coffees used have to play a role as well. The more popular commercial coffees like Black Cat (a fairly dark roast), and all the home-roasters pushing Harrar and Sumatras and Monsooned Malabar... sure, push the roast and stuff the crap out of the basket. Because a normale made from a more gentle roast may shine too bright a light on what you're actually drinking. I'm definitely not the first guy to come to this opinion on roast and green quality - in the states, at least, the Barismo guys and Terroir have been banging this drum for some time now.

I hate to use another wine analogy, but the two major advancements in commercial wine production over the past fifty years have been:
1) improving fruit quality (e.g., improved sorting, reducing spoiled / underripe fruit and stems, restricting yields, etc.)
2) perfect production hygiene (e.g., avoiding bacterial contamination, temperature controlled fermentations, etc.)

BOTH to ensure the purest expression of the fruit and terroir of the growing environment. And I have to believe that coffee will eventually trend in the same direction. 2000 years ago, the Romans and other Mediterranean cultures started getting serious about viniculture in wine quality. But then in production, they often pushed the alcohol levels past 16% to help preserve it and kill off the remaining yeast, stored it in clay jars sealed with pitch (which often tainted the wine), and then, to cover up all the undesirable flavors they added, served it oxidized and sweetened with honey. Anybody else see the parallels here? Does anyone want some honey in that glass of Caymus?

At least they had an excuse - clay jars were fairly state-of-the-art as far as available transportation and storage vessels at the time. But 2000 years later, we still use jute bags...

Getting back on topic, I have nothing against the ristretto technique, but man, there's just a lot more out there.

Anyway, I'm glad my amateur ramblings have inspired some enthusiasm and experiments.

[Jasonian]

...Who are you? Where have you been? And all this time, I've felt so alone.

Ha ha. Just an average home user who got hooked (and educated... and opinionated, I guess) at the original Rao's in Amherst and at Simon's in Cambridge.

That explains it all.

There's a whole sub-movement in the direction you described. Barismo is probably the most blatant with it on a public blog, but there are others.

I think part of the reason you don't see much talk about it on HB type forums is because the green quality required just isn't easy to come by in the States, or anywhere for the home-roaster, for that matter. You have a few "espresso porn" gurus gushing about monsooned coffee, harrars, big body, syrupy texture, and chocolate, and all of a sudden it becomes the norm.

I'm sure you're aware of all of this already, but a little support never hurts, right?

[HB]

Why isn't everybody striving to pull the gloppy, thick, flavor-exploding ristretto?

Lately my tastes have veered away from gloppy ristrettos and more towards borderline ristrettos / regular espressos (i.e., a brewing ratio of 60% instead of 100%). This change correlates with my developing interest in more nuanced / complex blends instead of "chocolate bar" blends made primarily for cappuccinos. I certainly enjoy a "gloppy, thick, flavor-exploding ristretto," but I also enjoy adapting the espresso preparation to explore the coffee's flavor profile.

[greatinfusions]

I find it is easier to make a good espresso ristretto than a 2 - 3 oz pour.

It seems to me like making that classic full shot just can go astray somewhere between 1oz and 3oz.

My first shot (most important of the day) is always a 2.5 oz poured from a 14 gram basket and made into a cappa. It's consistently a good shot and once in a while a god shot. I never pour over 3 oz. Through the day when I make shots at the shop I will make 1oz ristrettos of pure crema and shoot em straight.

It's all good!