Why lever shots are better: A Theory - Page 2

[grong]

Considering the Cremina is selling for around $3300 new and the Achille is $1200 new, and the Achille will pull shots all day without overheating, I know which one I would get.

I am not sure which one I would get, but this might be based on my usage--I just rarely pull more than three or four shots in a row. How does build quality and machine longevity figure in? It would seem that one can expect the Cremina to do what it does for several decades, and of course that is one reason for its considerable expense. The Achille, viewed in action in cannonfodder's videos, looks like it is pouring truly amazing shots.

Does Achille's engineering promise durability? There have been some early reports of the machine leaking under normal use, but perhaps this has been addressed.

[cannonfodder]

Leaking from where?

I have avoided other reviews as to not bias myself.

As to durability, it has not been around for a few decades like the Cremina so long term I cannot say. What I can say is that I see no reason for the machine not to last for some time. Innovative little things like the machine piston working on the cold side of the system and not being exposed to coffee residue should make it last for years before you need to change the gaskets. The shower screen and dispersion block is screwed on, no more banging out the piston to clean the works and a host of other little things.

The Cremina may retain a higher resell value but you would need to factor that as a percentage to be able to compare it to the Achille. My job is not to sell you on a machine, but to simply present you with the facts, educate you about the machine, then you can make an informed purchasing decision.

[peacecup]

I suggest you move the previous two posts to the Achille review, or link to them somehow.

I too read about leaking Achilles, I think from European users, but posted here in HB. I'm not positive.

What it the piston in the Achille made of? It looked like it might be plastic.

I also thought I saw some silicone tubes - I presume these are for cold water only. They are easiliy replaced, but they do tend to get gunked up.

What materials on the Achille are in contact with heated water. I have not done much research on the topic, but I have heard that heating with aluminun is not so great health-wise(not sure that brass is either?). Also, any aluminum in contact with hot water would tend to degrade more quickly that would brass or stainless steel.

PC

[grong]

My job is not to sell you on a machine, but to simply present you with the facts, educate you about the machine, then you can make an informed purchasing decision.

cannonfodder, Thanks for your excellent ongoing in-depth look at the Achille. I really appreciate your hard work and patience.

I have read reports about the Achille leaking around the base, but do not mean to imply that it is an ongoing problem. I hope it isn't a problem at all: Any one seen, used, or own the Gaggia Achille?

And after about 2 Liters a little water came out of the base of the boiler when pulling the lever.
The mould under the tray was under water.
I completely cleaned and dried everything.
And next morning I made coffee, and suddenly the light went out. All fuses were banged through.
After unplugging the Achille and replacing the fuses, I noticed, that the table under the Achille was completely wet.

I have the same problem that you with water under machine, then i send it to repair and it work well now.
In Gaggia swiss, they tell me that its normal that water drop for front of machine but abnormal under the machine and the electronic is under the machine.

[cannonfodder]

There is one silicone tube which is under no pressure and draws cold water from the heat exchanger water reservoir just like a pourover pump machine. The group piston is nylon as is the piston chamber but keep in mind; this is only immersed in COLD water and not subjected to any coffee residues. Do not think lever machine, think pump driven heat exchanger but instead of an electrical pump, you are using a lever attached arm powered pump.

I missed the leaking around the base post somehow but I can report that it has not been a problem. In Europe, the machine has been out for a year or more so hopefully bugs like that have been worked out. The 110 version is new to the states.

The boiler is stainless steel; the heat exchanger appears to be stainless as well. The group is chrome brass and the shower screen is stainless. The only aluminum part is the water dispersion block above the shower screen. One Phillips screw holds the screen on and two Allen screws hold the dispersion block on. I pointed that out and even have photos (and a video or two) on the bench review. I made the comment that I wish the block was stainless.

The big plus for the Achille is its ability to pull many shots and idle time. Leave an Elektra or La Pavoni on for 3 hours and you will never get anything drinkable out of them. The Achille, just flush the HX and go. The Achille has a larger drip tray than the Cremina but the steam wand, well, not so good. I have an entire section dedicated to just that. It has the will, but the 'froth aid' is not the best tool. A replacement wand would be the first thing on my changes list. Once again it is detailed in The Achille bench review.

[bishopthirteen]

Here is quite the honey on e-bay :








http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI....=270050879067&rd=1

[Dr Jim]

I never suspected that this research would so thoroughly consume my time! Even though the Conti looks too "commercial" for our kitchen, I think I might drop by Moschetti to see if they will let me sample a shot from a lever.

I like what I see in the Ponte Vecchio Lusso and the price seems reasonable. My only reservations are that I can only find one place that sells them in the U.S. and I haven't heard of these machines before. Do they have a decent track record with regard to dependability? Oh, and who would repair them, anyone generically qualified to work on espresso machines?

"My sediments exactly" - he said, staring at the grounds in his cup. When I set out to upgrade from our aging Pavoni, I felt much the same way - an oddball machine, sold by a no-name company - Faggadaboutit! (Brooklyneese for "No Thank You, I'll politely decline ..)

On an impulse, I did call down to Vaneli's Espresso, and spent a delightful 1/2 hour chatting with the original owner's son, who has taken over the business. He was articulate, opinionated, very well-informed and discussed the Lusso's strengths (3 litre boiler, steam and hot water, stable lever group) and weaknesses (older design, no false pressure bleed valve, difficult to fill) quite candidly. I was so impressed, that I bought the silly machine on the spot - a decision which I never had any reason to regret.

My dealings with Vaneli's have always been first-rate - they are ethical, achingly honest, and really do stand behind their products and customers - I'd have no qualms about getting support or parts.

I still believe that the PV 'Lusso' is one of the few 'bargains' in the espresso world - for roughly the same price as a Silvia, you get a machine which - used within its capacities - can produce world-class extractions of unsurpassed sweetness and flavor. Mind you, you are buying a modern antique - the machine's fundamental design dates back to the late '50's - so it lacks most modern features, and it's cursed with a 48mm group - which for someone coming from a 58mm commercial lever machine is like trying to make coffee by shaking a shrunken head.

I would recommend the PV 'Lusso' in a heartbeat to anyone looking for a home machine, who can be comfortable with the North Italian home standard 18 gram / 1.0-1.5 oz shots it puts out.

The Conti 'Prestina' is about as big a machine as I'd want in my kitchen, and the kindest thing you can say about its looks is "Well, it's not obviously ugly ... But boy, can it make coffee!" I believe that the Conti lever group may be the finest group design ever - certainly it wins the prize for sheer mechanical insanity- and it has proven itself to be a magnificent espresso machine.

I'm surprised that Moschetti still has their Conti - yes, the asking price is stiff, but you'd be getting a machine which should be good for 20 years of home use with no significant service required.

If you do drop by Moschetti's, would you please ask them if they have a boiler gasket for a Prestina? I need to go into mine to fix a steam leak caused by my own ham-handedness, and a new gasket would be a good thing to have.

Mojogear also owns a Conti, perhaps he can chime in with what it's like to live with one....

Cheers

Jim

[grong]

Here is a three-pull double basket shot from the old school Lusso, which I just enjoyed. The bottom white line marks 1 oz., the top 2. Coffee is Sweet Maria's Classic Italian Blend, three days roasted. There are three obvious layers visible in the glass. The tastiest shots from my Zaffiro, with 19 grams of cofffee, are about the same volume.
[/img]

[peacecup]

Dr. Jim wrote

Mind you, you are buying a modern antique - the machine's fundamental design dates back to the late '50's

Its becoming apparent to me that someone actually gave some thought to the design of these things. Witness the (relatively) tall and narrow group on the Ponte Vecchios vs. that on the Pavoni or Cremina (the better to cool you with). Also the 45-mm ID group has a relatively tall and narrow basket, which virtually eliminates side-channeling (the better to extract you with). My model, the smaller and lighter Export, is so well-balanced that I pull all of my shots with one had, while she stays firmly planted to the desk, aided my that marvel of modern technology, the suction cup (the better to pull you with).

Although I've had no opportunities to pull shots on commercial levers, the PV shots are very tasty.

I also had a good buying experience with Vanelis, and have even had some personal responses from the PV factory in Italy

PC

PS - Great photo Grong

[cannonfodder]

How about a video from the Gaggia Achille Bench Review

[timo888]

"My sediments exactly" - he said, staring at the grounds in his cup. ...

I would recommend the PV 'Lusso' in a heartbeat to anyone looking for a home machine, who can be comfortable with the North Italian home standard 18 gram / 1.0-1.5 oz shots it puts out.

staring absinthe-mindedly ?

Jim, do I understand you correctly that you use 18g of coffee to produce ~1.5oz of espresso?

Regards
Timo

[Dr Jim]

staring absinthe-mindedly ?

Jim, do I understand you correctly that you use 18g of coffee to produce ~1.5oz of espresso?

Regards
Timo

I've sold my PV 'Lusso' - a victim of downsizing from 2 apartments, 2 boats, and a Lab to a condo and a boat - so I can't check the PV's actual basket weight, but I believe it can be stuffed to 18gm. As Gronk points out, you can get 1.5oz shots from the PV, but this takes multiple pulls, which is just asking to for over-extraction, excessive blonding, or both.

Since the PV has no springclip in its portafilter, you can construct a very interesting drink by prepping several 15gm baskets in advance and then rapidly pulling consecutive shots into a 6oz Bodum 'Pavina' double-walled glass. This can be a bit 'process-intensive' with baskets, coffee, and portafilters flying about the countertop at high rates of speed. and is NOT a recommended procedure for the hung-over or sleepy, but it does yield about 2.5oz of highly fragrant and tasty coffee from almost 45gm of grounds.

My preferred morning drink is created from a marzocco or synesso triple basket packed with roughly 25-27gm of coffee in a bottomless Astoria portafilter - the Conti pulls a very neat 2oz extraction with this beast, to which I add 3oz of microfoamed milk, and top it with a thin layer of hard-foam as a thermal sealer. This drink neatly fits the Bodum glass, and with the Pavina's double walls and the foam on top, it stays warm and drinkable for up to 15 minutes.

Cheers

Jim

[grong]

With Rocky and mr. brown's distribution method, I could pack 15-1/2 grams into PV's double basket. With the Macap I can fit in 13 or 13-1/2. This allows the necessary headspace.

8g from the Macap fit into the single, but at one notch coarser grind.

I have seen no blonding with a double pull, but have seen it on the triple, in spout trails.

I have many baskets at Dr Jim's suggestion, and am often prepping a new basket with coffee as pressure dissipates in the portafilter from a recent pull. I steam milk while the spring pulls the shot.

[KarlSchneider]

My theory is that manual-lever baristas are maintaining not constant brew pressure but flow rate. We adjust our pressure on the lever, sometimes subconsciously, to keep the flow going. Extraction quality is in the flow, not in the pressure.

Where does this leave the spring-driven lever's espresso, by comparison? How do results from a manual lever and spring lever differ, all else being equal?

<snip>

It's possible to pull excellent shots from both.

<snip>

The manual lever is a stringed instrument without frets. The spring lever, one with frets.

Regards
Timo

As the happy owner of a spring-lever Microcasa and a manual lever Cremina I much agree with Timo that both can pull excellent shots.

I would actually underscore the point that the two I "know" pull very different kinds of shots and consistently so. This difference in taste is so pronounced that it makes very little sense to me to dwell on comparing them as better or worse.

The Elektra extracts the purest flavors of coffee. Since I love the nuances of SO's the Elektra excels in this regard. The Olympia exceeds the Elektra in crema (hence the appropriateness of its name) and in body.

I find that each machine allows different roasts to sing best.

So I use both constantly (the Elektra slightly more often). A better 2-group I cannot imagine.

KS