Why is there no standard for coffee freshness? - Page 2

[Marshall]

You know those home coffee makers that grind and brew? This would suggest the next step in that evolution... roast, grind and brew, feed it green beans and a couple of hours later (or presumably on timer), out comes the freshest possible coffee short of living on a plantation...

You rang? http://www.patentgenius.com/patent/5307733.html The Japanese Koki roaster/grinder/brewer was already in production by 1991. I've also seen a German or Swiss version locally.

[IslandAddict]

It seems to me that a better solution is one that is demand driven.

I am willing to bet that the vast majority of consumers have absolutely no idea how important freshness is. I've always cared about coffee quality, but I didn't understand the importance of freshness until I started getting serious and reading up on coffee. I get it now.

Consumer education is the key! Get consumers to understand that coffee should be used within a week or two after roasting and within minutes after grinding. My friends think I'm nuts when I tell them this. They have no idea.

Educated consumers will expect to see specialty coffee in the produce section of markets where freshness is valued and demanded, not in the cereals section where shelf lives of months or years are assumed. People know to check the freshness of fruit and dairy products, but how many people know to check the date of their coffee? Enlightened consumers will demand "roasted on" dates, and speciality roasters will oblige. Knowledgable consumers will demand weekly stock rotation of premium, fresh-roasted coffee, and grocers will respond.

What's the SCAA doing about consumer education? Anything? (Who's ever heard of the SCAA anyway?)

[cafeIKE]

And I agree with the others who've stated that different roasts/beans handle -- well, perhaps "handling freshness" isn't the best way to put it; let's say that some "turn stale more rapidly" than others. I've made myself what I consider truly great shots with beans as "young" as 4-5 days after roasting, as well as 7-10 days and -- once -- even 2+ weeks after roasting.

With a new coffee, it's often a good idea to extend the trial period even after the coffee is 'stale.' Some coffees undergo a sea-change and become wonderful in latter days. IMO, at least 2 pounds of any new coffee is the minimum for a fair evaluation.

[bernie]

True, but some beans certainly handle aging differently than others - I've had some coffees that were still fine at two weeks or even longer, and others that were clearly stale at 10 days.

Also, keep in mind that the standards for freshness of the people posting here are probably way above what would be considered acceptable by most consumers - would you feel the same if the standard the SCAA adopted, in order to accommodate *$ and other non-premier roasters, were three months? Two? One?

If it weren't the SCAA I referenced in the beginning of this thread I wouldn't even pursue the idea. My point has always been that "specialty" coffee means just that. It is supposedly a better quality coffee and commands a higher price. The danger (especially in todays market) is that if it is not differentiated from other lesser quality coffees which may be of lower quality, stale, etc then there is no reason to be buying the coffee and paying a premium. The absolute best way to differentiate the product is using what is considered by most to be the primary element of a cup of quality coffee. That element is freshness. If the position of the SCAA is that freshness is too complicated an issue to establish a standard then perhaps it should become the "Great Big Stale Roaster" association and stop this nonsense of being specialty. No standard is perfect. The only thing worse for specialty coffee is to not set a standard in order to mollify the concerns of the mega-roasters. As far as fast shipping for those geographically situated in a 2 or 3 day zone from the roaster, my question would be if they believe the coffee was roasted, packed and shipped the day they ordered it? In some instances it is. In many instances the order that you place on Friday and is shipped on Monday is actually four days post-roast. Not too many roasters will come in on Saturday or Sunday to roast a small batch for shipping on Monday. The SCAA at this point is putting itself in the position of degrading the position of specialty coffee by allowing the blurring of who is really a specialty roaster. Fat lot of good that does the membership who strive to do the best. Starbucks should be the wakeup call of what happens when the consuming public no longer has confidence that there is a material difference between a cup of specialty coffee and C-grade.
Bernie

[VS_DoubleShot]

Why is there no standard for coffee freshness?

Ignorance and money.

[JimWright]

I'm not sure I buy your argument Bernie - you seem to be suggesting that the SCAA is really the Barefoot/Intelligentsia/Counter Culture/et al caliber coffee association, and that they should set their standards based on the producers of the world's best coffee. Is that really who they are? I guess I always thought of "specialty coffee" as any business that specializes in coffee, as opposed to selling coffee as a part of other operations - that would probably exclude your local grocer, and Proctor & Gamble, but would certainly include places like Starbucks and other cafe businesses that don't operate by the standards you are suggesting. Not that I, personally, don't tend to patronize almost exclusively those higher end places, but I think the SCAA represents a much broader group. Perhaps I'm mistaken though (and certainly open to correction).

Marshall, have you ever actually seen one of those Koki machines? I spent a minute or two looking for one on the web and didn't see any, but I'm curious now...

[Marshall]

I guess I always thought of "specialty coffee" as any business that specializes in coffee, as opposed to selling coffee as a part of other operations - that would probably exclude your local grocer, and Proctor & Gamble, but would certainly include places like Starbucks and other cafe businesses that don't operate by the standards you are suggesting. Not that I, personally, don't tend to patronize almost exclusively those higher end places, but I think the SCAA represents a much broader group. Perhaps I'm mistaken though (and certainly open to correction).

I do not believe there is a single definition from seed to cup, but here is a good starting point from Don Holly, one of SCAA's founding fathers: http://kaffee.netfirms.com/Coffee/SCAASpecCofDef.html

The most relevant part of Don's article (and this debate continues):

In roasted coffee, most agree freshness is part of the definition for specialty. The consensus breaks down in attempting to develop guidelines for freshness. At SCAA, we are concerned that there are no established technical standards for evaluating this facet of coffee quality. While our Retail Roaster members focus on the issue of time-maintaining a 3 to 7 day window is optimum for best results-many of our Wholesale Roaster members contend that today's packaging technology greatly expands this period of time into weeks or even months. Beyond the issue of "who is right" in this debate lies the more compelling question of "how do we decide." In order to find consensus on the first question, we have to reach agreement on the second. It is true that good coffee, well-roasted, and packaged in conditions that prevent oxidation, will brew up a flavorful cup of coffee. The scientific question is whether the packaging can retain the aromatic properties of the coffee that helped make it "special". My experience as a Retail Roaster suggests that "while the tongue may tell, only the nose knows for certain." Therefore, if the coffee is not highly aromatic then it no longer deserves to be called "specialty." The important job for SCAA is to quantify this aspect of quality into a good technical standard. This won't be an easy task.

And back to Jim:

Marshall, have you ever actually seen one of those Koki machines? I spent a minute or two looking for one on the web and didn't see any, but I'm curious now...

I've never seen a Koki all-in-one in person, but there is a photo in Ian Bersten's "Coffee Floats Tea Sinks." It is surprisingly compact.

[JimWright]

Interesting. Among Don's thoughts: "While our Retail Roaster members focus on the issue of time-maintaining a 3 to 7 day window is optimum for best results-many of our Wholesale Roaster members contend that today's packaging technology greatly expands this period of time into weeks or even months."

[Marshall]

Interesting. Among Don's thoughts: "While our Retail Roaster members focus on the issue of time-maintaining a 3 to 7 day window is optimum for best results-many of our Wholesale Roaster members contend that today's packaging technology greatly expands this period of time into weeks or even months."

Keep in mind that wholesale coffee that is used in a shop will usually be entirely consumed on the day it is opened, while consumers may take a week or more to finish just one pound. This could produce different "freshness experiences" between coffees consumed at leisure at home and those drunk at a coffee shop.

[JimWright]

Keep in mind that wholesale coffee that is used in a shop will usually be entirely consumed on the day it is opened, while consumers may take a week or more to finish just one pound. This could produce different "freshness experiences" between coffees consumed at leisure at home and those drunk at a coffee shop.

Yes, of course, but to the extent kept "weeks, or even months" before that opening and quick consumption, it would still be quite a bit longer than some here are suggesting as a standard. In sum, this is not a settled point within the community.

[espressoed]

Changing just one word of Don Holly's article excerpt makes it perhaps a more accurate description of the current state of affairs:

"While our Retail Roaster members focus on the issue of time-maintaining a 3 to 7 day window is optimum for best results-many of our Wholesale Roaster members pretend that today's packaging technology greatly expands this period of time into weeks or even months."

[JimWright]

Fair enough - but pretend or otherwise, to the extent the organization represents these folks, you cannot expect the SCAA to easily adopt standards which their members and supporters do not all agree with.

[bernie]

Fair enough - but pretend or otherwise, to the extent the organization represents these folks, you cannot expect the SCAA to easily adopt standards which their members and supporters do not all agree with.

Thats the hypocrisy of their position. If you ask them they all heartily agree that freshness is of primary importance. Everyone yaps about how important it is to specialty coffee. Then when you try and introduce the idea of setting a standard for this oh-so-important element of specialty coffee it becomes a prickly subject. Yeah, we want to be part of specialty coffee, but no we do not want any standards that may impede our sales.
Organic coffee standards, fair trade coffee standards don't seem to be a problem endorsed by the organization. Funny that something that enhances the profit line and is handled by a third party is no problem, but something like freshness standards that no other party has an interest in and no other party has nearly the expertise as the SCAA has is such an impossible task. Come to think of it, I don't recall them ever polling the membership as to whether we would want such a standard set.
Bernie

[Marshall]

Trish Skeie on canning specialty coffees: http://www.taylormaidfarms.com/learn_content/roasters_realm_august_04.html.

[JimWright]

Interesting. In my every-other-daily stop at Groundwork for a bagel on my morning ride, I've noticed that they offer canned beans - perhaps I'll have to try one when I run out the increasingly excessive bean supply in my freezer...

In any case, to those who feel strongly about it, is Ms. Skeie just pretending (i.e., flat out lying) when she says "We cupped six-month-old [canned] coffee against a just roasted coffee. The canned coffee tasted exactly like the fresh roast for at least five days, the time that we assume it would take a consumer to go through a 12-ounce can."? Do you assume the coffee she started with was #$%& to begin with? What is the explanation? Does Illy's text address this subject in any depth?

As a separate question, I note that she refers repeatedly to vacuum packing, but says Illy's research shows positive pressure, above atmospheric, to be preferable - is she using these interchangeably, or does anyone actually can with positive pressure?

[bernie]

In any case, to those who feel strongly about it, is Ms. Skeie just pretending (i.e., flat out lying) when she says "We cupped six-month-old [canned] coffee against a just roasted coffee. The canned coffee tasted exactly like the fresh roast for at least five days, the time that we assume it would take a consumer to go through a 12-ounce can."? Do you assume the coffee she started with was #$%& to begin with? What is the explanation? Does Illy's text address this subject in any depth?

Trish isn't lying. If she says it tasted the same it did. She has a well developed palate and is a trained cupper. I'd be interested in trying this myself. If I'm wrong, I'll be the first to admit it. The idea that 6-month old coffee tastes the same as fresh roasted.......
Bernie

[coffeefrog]

Trish isn't lying. If she says it tasted the same it did. She has a well developed palate and is a trained cupper. I'd be interested in trying this myself. If I'm wrong, I'll be the first to admit it. The idea that 6-month old coffee tastes the same as fresh roasted.......
Bernie

Aren't cupping and espresso wildly different ways of making coffee? The fact that cupping is indicative of certain characteristics in espresso when the beans are fresh does not mean that it detects aging problems. My own tolerance of old preground coffee used in a Melior (French Press) is much, much higher than my tolerance of aging beans used in espresso.

Greg

[JimWright]

Agreed Greg. The point was that there seems to be legitimate debate in the community around what constitutes fresh coffee - not just folks who pretend for their own convenience that anything more than a week or two out of the roaster could be fresh.

[Marshall]

The fact that cupping is indicative of certain characteristics in espresso when the beans are fresh does not mean that it detects aging problems.

I don't know what this means.

[coffeefrog]

I don't know what this means.

As I understand it, cupping is not done by making espresso. It is thus an imperfect way of judging how an espresso will turn out and will show defects in the coffee beans in different ways to actual espresso making. Or am I misunderstanding cupping?