Why a double basket with single pulls?

[S.L.]

Seems that the dose of 7 to 9 grams that a single gives corresponds just right to a 35-40ml single pull. Are folks here doing double pulls with their double baskets or just going for big ristrettos? Odd thing is I can hit 40ml with the single with no blonding, where when I try the double I always get a bit of blonding at the end of the pull. I hate to pull the lever back for another go as I can just imagine what's happening to the puck under vacuum.

I'm happy with the single singles, maybe my palate is accustomed to that from the local cafe's- just curious what the in-the-cup goal is with double (and updosed double) baskets.

[timo888]

Seems that the dose of 7 to 9 grams that a single gives corresponds just right to a 35-40ml single pull. Are folks here doing double pulls with their double baskets or just going for big ristrettos? Odd thing is I can hit 40ml with the single with no blonding, where when I try the double I always get a bit of blonding at the end of the pull. I hate to pull the lever back for another go as I can just imagine what's happening to the puck under vacuum.

I'm happy with the single singles, maybe my palate is accustomed to that from the local cafe's- just curious what the in-the-cup goal is with double (and updosed double) baskets.

Cremina pulls an excellent single. I use the single basket almost exclusively, sometimes with only 6g. When using the double basket (dosed from 12g-14g), I pull down very gently on the first pull until there's a drop in the cup, lift gently to draw more water, and then pull to completion. Depending on the dose, the result in the cup is a normale or a normale ristretto.

Regards
Timo

[Mike Panic]

I can safely fit about 11.6grams in my europiccola double basket, depending on bean and how hard I tamp, sometimes as much as 12. 98% of the time I am yielding around 1.25-1.5oz from that.

My method has been:

Lever up for 10 seconds
Lever down till first few drips
Lever up for 5-8 seconds
Lever down for 25-28 seconds

It's the only way I can seem to get enough pressure through it to get a great tasting, amazing looking "double" shot. I will be looking at the elektra triple basket that espressoparts offeres for my 49mm pavoni at some point in the future though.

[peacecup]

There is a wide range of what people consider "normal" espresso - I used to go by Illy's definition of 7g coffee to ~ 30 ml of espresso. With the double basket its more like 12-14g to 45 ml, so this tends towards ristretto. I very seldom see anyone advocating a traditional 14g:60ml doppio.

We've had a lot of discssion about 1 vs. 2 or more pulls on the home levers. For me its been a bit like trying to bail out the Channel with a teaspoon - people have become so accustomed to 12-14g, 30ml shots that they don't like the taste of the more traditional doppio. In the Lever Smackdown thread I've been trying to get a reviewer to seriously evaluate some 14g:60 ml shots on the Ponte Vecchio, but to no avail.

PC

[timo888]

For Illy the dose ranges from 5g to 8g for the single:

Volume: 25-30ml
Ground coffee portion: 6.5 ± 1.5g
Water temperature: 90 ± 5° C
Inlet water pressure: 9 ± 2 bar
Percolation time: 30 ± 5 seconds

[S.L.]

people have become so accustomed to 12-14g, 30ml shots that they don't like the taste of the more traditional doppio

I guess that's what's got me puzzled. I'll have to dig around for some different beans and see if I can pull a drinkable triple ristretto .

[RapidCoffee]

There is a wide range of what people consider "normal" espresso - I used to go by Illy's definition of 7g coffee to ~ 30 ml of espresso. With the double basket its more like 12-14g to 45 ml, so this tends towards ristretto. I very seldom see anyone advocating a traditional 14g:60ml doppio.

What, only 60ml? Obviously you haven't been following this thread.

We've had a lot of discssion about 1 vs. 2 or more pulls on the home levers. For me its been a bit like trying to bail out the Channel with a teaspoon - people have become so accustomed to 12-14g, 30ml shots that they don't like the taste of the more traditional doppio. In the Lever Smackdown thread I've been trying to get a reviewer to seriously evaluate some 14g:60 ml shots on the Ponte Vecchio, but to no avail.

When you specify 60ml, do you mean liquid, crema, or a mixture? AndyS's brew ratios offer a much more precise way to evaluate the ratio of coffee dose to extracted liquid in an espresso.

BTW, 60ml water (w/o dissolved coffee material) weighs 60g, and 14g coffee to 60g liquid yields a brew ratio of only 23%. That's somewhere between a lungo and a cafe crema.

[S.L.]

Great links John! I won't give up on my double basket, the singles are far less dramatic with a naked p/f. Seems like I'm pulling a pretty big single but I was judging volume based on blonding. I'll try making some shots to Andy's standards and see what the results are.

[peacecup]

Rapid coffee wrote this on coffeegeek, taken from the IENI:

Necessary portion of ground coffee 7 g ± 0,5
• Exit temperature of water from the unit 88°C ± 2°C
• Temperature of the drink in the cup 67°C ± 3°C
• Entry water pressure 9 bar ± 1
• Percolation time 25 seconds ± 2,5 seconds
• Viscosity at 45°C > 1,5 mPa s
• Total fat > 2 mg/ml
• Caffeine < 100 mg/cup
• Millilitres in the cup (including foam) 25 ml ± 2,5

Right, 7g:25ml, this is a 28% shot. So 14g:50 ml would fit the bill as a traditional doppio. Sorry, I said 60ml, but I was thinking in ounces, which is the regular old 2 oz doppio. By IENI standards this is NOT a lungo, its a doppio espresso. My point was that Andy's brew ratio chart somewhat REDEFINES the traditional terminology, albeit it is more precise. For example, Andy's "regular espresso, single, med., at 7g, only produces 14g of liquid - the IENI definition would be 20+g (unless the shot was all crema).

So...I'm saying that an IENI double has a lower brew ratio than does Andy's double. Because the majority of posters here on HB tend towards following Andy's guidelines, they're more accustomed to "ristetto-ish" doubles. Hence, when they taste a traditional double they find it less palatable. Its like switching from strong ale to lager. I think this is why I could not get any of the Ponte Vecchio reviewers to seriously evaluate shots in the 25% brew ratio range.


BTW Mark Prince long ago wrote an article on Coffeegeek about the traditional double. As he became a more skilled barista he had initially gravitated towards ristrettos. He later realized that it was more difficult to pull a really great double, but that when he did it was very rewarding.

PC

[peacecup]

Meet the New Drink: The Traditional Double, by Mark Prince:


http://coffeegeek.com/opinions/co...emoment/06-10-2003

A tantalizing quote:

So I got to thinking about it a bit more. Maybe, just maybe, back in the day when I made the gradual shift to ristretto from the normal double, I was compensating for my overall lack of artisan skill and experience in brewing the traditional espresso.

Cheers,

PC

[RapidCoffee]

Right, 7g:25ml, this is a 28% shot. So 14g:50 ml would fit the bill as a traditional doppio. Sorry, I said 60ml, but I was thinking in ounces, which is the regular old 2 oz doppio. By IENI standards this is NOT a lungo, its a doppio espresso. My point was that Andy's brew ratio chart somewhat REDEFINES the traditional terminology, albeit it is more precise. For example, Andy's "regular espresso, single, med., at 7g, only produces 14g of liquid - the IENI definition would be 20+g (unless the shot was all crema).

So...I'm saying that an IENI double has a lower brew ratio than does Andy's double. Because the majority of posters here on HB tend towards following Andy's guidelines, they're more accustomed to "ristetto-ish" doubles. Hence, when they taste a traditional double they find it less palatable. Its like switching from strong ale to lager. I think this is why I could not get any of the Ponte Vecchio reviewers to seriously evaluate shots in the 25% brew ratio range.

That's my point: unless you know whether the volume is crema or liquid, it's hard to make reasoned comparisons. I'm a big fan of Andy's brew ratios because a) it's hard to measure volume as precisely and reproducibly as weight and b) it takes crema production out of the equation.

On pump machines that extract with 9 bars of pressure, you can expect nearly 100% crema to pour into the cup. I have no argument with the traditional IENI definition of espresso, assuming that the 25ml single or 50ml double is mostly crema. This shot was pulled as a 50ml double, but would eventually settle to 30ml or less. I'm sure the brew ratio was (slightly) over 50%.

Bottomless pour on a Vetrano rotary pump machine.

[Edit: irrelevant pix deleted.]

Unless all our shots are the same density (same amount and type of crema), claiming 14g and 50ml is a normale double is rather vague. My apologies to the IENI, but it's much more precise to specify a 50% brew ratio.

Kudos (again) to Andy for his attempt to quantify our espresso terminology with brew ratios.

[peacecup]

I have no argument with the traditional IENI definition of espresso, assuming that the 25ml single or 50ml double is mostly crema

No offense John, but this is probably a false assumption. I suspect the 25 ml is mostly liquid. My first point is that there is no right or wrong definition (albeit Andy's is more precise), but that the taste of a typical HB double differs from that of a "IENI" double. And it happens that IENI is the standard definition (witness Mark Prince's article dated 2003), so this is what causes confusion. Obviously the OP was thinking in IENI terms when he asked the question.

My second point is that I agree with Mark Prince's premise that a good "traditional" double can be great - and that it is actually more difficult to pull off than a good ristretto.

PC

[RapidCoffee]

No offense John, but this is probably a false assumption. I suspect the 25 ml is mostly liquid.

No offense taken. But I don't think we have enough info to judge what is meant by "25ml".

...I agree with Mark Prince's premise that a good "traditional" double can be great - and that it is actually more difficult to pull off than a good ristretto.

No argument with the first premise, no strong feelings one way or another about the second. My standard pull is 45-60ml from a double basket dosed to 16-18g, extraction time around 25-30 seconds, 9 bar pressure, brew temperature in the vicinity of 198-204F, etc. And I believe that I am actually pulling "traditional" doubles.

But I could be wrong.

[HB]

BTW Mark Prince long ago wrote an article on Coffeegeek about the traditional double. As he became a more skilled barista he had initially gravitated towards ristrettos. He later realized that it was more difficult to pull a really great double, but that when he did it was very rewarding.

My standard pull is 45-60ml from a double basket dosed to 16-18g, extraction time around 25-30 seconds, 9 bar pressure, brew temperature in the vicinity of 198-204F, etc. And I believe that I am actually pulling "traditional" doubles.

I've been through five SCAA certification workshops as part of sensory judge training for barista competitions. At the regional level, it's a one day workshop and at the USBC level, it's a two day workshop. Each candidate is evaluated by WBC certified trainers during mock competitions. When you score a particular drink, they ask for your rationale for each score (crema appearance, taste balance, tactile balance). The shot volume was rarely mentioned among sensory judges, though the tech judges may give it more attention.

From a technical viewpoint, it's helpful to compare preparation notes by weighing the coffee prior to extraction and liquid produced. Andy's correlation of brewing ratios to traditional drinks is a good shorthand, but honestly I think it's more meaningful to compare taste notes than compare volumes and weights. Consider for example:

Suggested dose and brew temp were, IMHO, ideal for use in milk drinks (where the caramelized sugar, honey-roasted nut and powdered chocolate notes really shown).

I found I preferred straight espressos at a lower dose and lower brew temp. There I got espresso that was glorious... chocolate dusted sweet pink grapefruit with candied pecans and a shot of aged Flor de Cana rum.

From Ecco Caffe Experimental Espresso

...versus a nice picture of John's shotglass. Which tells you more about how it tasted?

[RapidCoffee]

...versus a nice picture of John's shotglass. Which tells you more about how it tasted?

Point taken. But the discussion did revolve around shot volume (not taste) for describing the "traditional" double.

Sigh. I know what I like, and that's generally an extraction that fits the above description. But I will never be half as eloquent as malachi in describing the resulting espresso flavor spectrum: "...chocolate dusted sweet pink grapefruit with candied pecans and a shot of aged Flor de Cana rum." Wow. I can almost taste it from here.