Why don't pros use the WDT? More advanced distribution techniques? - Page 8

[coffeedirtdog]

Anyone reading who thinks espresso is complicated, please do not invite me for dinner.

If you are content with what you are drinking, great. That doesn't mean you have mastered anything or have figured out any great secrets. It may simply mean you reached the limits of your equipment/skills set/palate. That however does not give you the right to belittle someone else who puts a lot of time into trying to help people on the forums.

[gtrman]

The Ramblings of a Newbie:

I can't exactly remember what started off this argument...(was it tamper tapping vs. tamper non tapping?)

But, if Jason taps, and it works for him...whats the problem? Personally, the only difference I can detect is the abundance of grinds on the shower screen post-consumption. Some may tap too hard and cause channeling, but if the PBTC doesn't understand that experimentation with the different variables is needed for improvement (grind, dose, tap{intensity} v no tap, temp if thats available), my guess is that channeling due to over tapping is the least of their worries. As has been said for some its more part of the routine, part of focusing on the art, and there is no strictly right way. Superautos do the exact same thing all the time, even between machines (I think)...but its barely drinkable. Its an organic thing this coffee thing from the beans to the process and no 2 baristi will do it exactly the same.

At one point Nomar Garciaparra had the highest average in all of MLB at one point IIRC, and he did/does his silly glove adjustment and batswing dance before he hits. Part of his routine, to get in the zone (I'm at a loss for other sports examples..sorry.) I also remember hearing that James Hetfield of Metallica has a habit of standing in a 18''x24'' or so plastic container of grass and dirt from his home town before every show they play. Again getting his mind ready.

Tapping does serve a purpose other than being part of a routine, but the key is realizing that its just one more of the nearly infinite variables of espresso, as I would have to assume that everyone here does. Though getting the amount of variables down is a good thing in many cases, it seems as though this is one that should at least be considered: if only because so many have done it with success. I'm for tapping, but for me its more of a "getting in the zone" thing, and I still like my results better than 99% of cafes I've tried.

An afterthought: (this is definitely NOT meant to belittle any of the pros here in any way shape or form) We should be so fortunate to spend our free time on these fora discussing and pursuing coffee nirvana, why let it get so heated huh?

[Psyd]

Martial arts practitioners countenance 3,000 or more repetitions to perfect a movement.

At 1500 repetitions the movement becomes a reaction that doesn't require forebrain thought to accomplish, 3,000 and the movement becomes muscle-memory. Nothing about perfection. At least not in my martial arts circles. I've done quite a few things way over 3000 times that still aren't close to perfect.
The point is that quite a few of these 'superflous gyrations and twiddlles' are the result of having bad things happen, and trying something, anything, to make it better.
I'm still not sure why things that work for you must be the way that they work for others before you'll be happy about it.
We've said that we're jealous that you've either: 1) perfected the art of making espresso simply, or, 2) perfected the art of being happy with whatever espresso your simple routine produces. In either case, we're happy that it works for you. What confuses us is why you'd be so concerned that some of us either: 1) need to do more to make decent 'spro, or 2) want more than what we're getting from Firsta...
So, what is that about?

[cafeIKE]

What confuses us is why you'd be so concerned that some of us either: 1) need to do more to make decent 'spro, or 2) want more than what we're getting from First-a...
So, what is that about?

We agree some need to do more to make decent 'spro.
The relevant question at hand is what is more and what is less.

First, let's 'demolish the polish'.



In one of the above images, the puck is polished. Each had a single drop of water applied at the surface and the photo snapped within ~1s. There is no discernable difference to the naked eye or when viewed with a 10x loupe.

I first learned of the 'polish' on the internet many years after my first self-pulled espresso. Erroneous thinking led me to believe, and I stress believe, that techniques may have improved over the ensuing interval. I tried all manner of polishes as described on the web. Discerning no taste difference in either direction, I embarked on a test series to determine what effect polishing might actually have. As there is no difference on the spent puck, I surmised that any positive effects must occur in the earlier stages of the extraction. I truncated extractions down to the minimum I could reliably run the pump, about 1s, and examined pucks. There is absolutely no difference whatsoever, polished or not.


Next, let's 'knock the crap outta the tap'.

Unless the rules have changed, distribution is a key parameter in pulling a shot. Simple physics dictates that if one taps on one side of the puck, the distribution is changed. Tap twice and change it more. Now if one taps equally and at exactly 180° in exactly the same plane, one still cannot reverse the changes as the mass distribution is not the initial condition. Realizing that the likelihood of restoring the puck to its initial state is well nigh impossible, it seems prudent never to begin a tapping regimen.

The polishers and tappers have claimed 'cleaning' as a benefit.
Firstly, if there was any benefit, it accrues on subsequent shots, not the current.
Secondly, simpler, quicker and more effective cleaning operations are available.

By all means experiment with things that make a difference :
Large : Coffee, Grind, Dose
Medium : Pressure, Temperature
Minimal : Tamp, assuming it's level
Once the above is exhausted...

My 'concern' is that a too large percentage of Home-Baristas fail to grasp the above. Wading through mountains of threads like "Grind Setting for..." and responses to "Why are you doing that?" of "I dunno, I saw..." frosts my biscuit!

If going through the motions makes one believe the espresso is top notch, so be it.
Some know otherwise.

"Some men are just as sure of the truth of their opinions as are others of what they know" - Aristotle

"Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler" - Albert Einstein

[HB]

Tapping: I agree with you; interestingly enough, many of the 2007 USBC competitors in the finals were tappers. I assume it's old habits dying hard, or they think the benefit of knocking down a few errant grinds outweighs the potential perturbation of the distribution and breaking the puck adhesion.

Polishing: I still cling to the polish because it cleans the bottom of the tamper off before I set it down, and also because it makes the puck look nicer. As you said, it makes no in-cup difference I can discern.

Simplification: There's a lot to be said for simplification, especially for the post newbie stage. On the other hand, I worked 30 minutes with one of my very detail oriented buddies, providing him precise, repeatable instructions on making espresso... and yes, including the WDT. Before I left he was preparing espresso in his kitchen better than he'd ever had in his life, not caring that it would only be considered "average" by this forum's standards. His early success is what convinced him to forgo a super-auto that I had practically begged him not to buy. Months later he's still plugging away, happy as can be. Did I teach him "crutch" techniques? Yes. Could he simplify his process? Undoubtedly. Did he make more progress in one evening than most new espresso machine buyers make in a month? I think so, and that made it worthwhile.

That said, there's "how to" (or "how [not] to") article potential here; I need to think about it, thanks.

[Marshall]

[By all means experiment with things that make a difference :
Large : Coffee, Grind, Dose
Medium : Pressure, Temperature
Minimal : Tamp, assuming it's level

I would break "Dose" down into Dose-Weight and Dose-Distribution, as they involve different operations.

Assigning "Pressure" to Medium importance is pure guesswork, as decent in-the-basket pressure measurement and experiments are just beginning (shout out to Andy Schecter and Greg Scace).

Tap-tap and polish rituals feel good, like a batter knocking dirt off his cleats. I think their only useful functions are on a waste-not/want-not level. If you tap gently, you knock some grounds from the basket wall onto the bed without disturbing the distribution below. A gentle polish pulls clinging grounds off the tamper. Over the course of a lifetime, this may save a half pound of coffee. I suppose the polish also leaves the work area cleaner, since grounds aren't falling off the tamper onto the counter.

All this being said, I generally agree with you.

[cafeIKE]

Polishing: I still cling to the polish because it cleans the bottom of the tamper off before I set it down

I've always set my tamper on a towel and given it a wipe as I wait for the nectar to flow. I think it was shot two or three that I looked at the oily tamper... 'yecch'

[cannonfodder]

I will toss in my two cents. I do tap, once, very lightly after a leveling tamp but before the full tamp simply to knock grinds down from the side of the basket. I have skipped the tap and used the tap, no difference to me but as Dan says, old habits die hard.

Polish, I do use a no pressure polish. Again, it is not to improve the cup in any way, but to make sure I do not have any bits come up with the tamper. I have had an errant tiny drop of water on the piston before. A straight tamp and raise resulted in a chunk of coffee sticking to the piston base and the puck being knocked out without use. I give it a twist to make sure no coffee is adhering to the piston, simple as that.

[TimEggers]

Dan your friends experiences loosely follow mine where as I was big into the added steps in "fashioning a shot and preparing the basket" when I was first starting but now that I have been able to achieve a consistent level of espresso quality I have all but done away with everything beyond grind, dose, tamp then pull. When I did that my shots did get worse and a little less consistent (ok all over the map is more like it). But once I began to practice the simpler approach things began to improve. Long story short (if it's not to late) my shots now are every bit as even and delicious as my older "more prepared" shots and I'm not spending near the amount of time or fuss over getting there.

The WDT is without a doubt what kept me interested in home espresso and got me beyond the initial frustration and allowed me to move to a simpler and arguably "more advanced" approach that I enjoy today.

Like Mr. Eales (cafeIKE) has said, it really can be that simple and I don't believe that doing it simple means that anyone has settled for a lesser quality anything (as some seem to hint towards). It truly can be excellent and simple (to repeat others sentiments).

P.S.- I use an old knitted hot pad for a tamper stand/cleaner between shots. Works like a charm.

[Jasonian]

Firstly, if there was any benefit, it accrues on subsequent shots, not the current.

Isn't that what I said way back?

On a busy bar, time is of the essence, and using an extra towel for cleaning the tamper takes quite a long time compared to a simple twist of the wrist during the tamp.

I agree that intended simplicity is best. I advocate that stance 100%. I also advocate getting the best average espresso possible, and in a commercial setting, that means tapping and polishing are good practice providing that neither results in a negatively affected extraction.

I never said that polishing actually did anything for the extraction. I don't think anyone else has either. At least, not in this thread.

None of this is to say that a home barista should practice the polish or tap. This is just to defend your initial attack on the technique displayed in my posted videos.

I think we're concurrent on this.

[cafeIKE]

I have had an errant tiny drop of water on the piston before.

Your application for membership in the OCDC is rejected!

...your initial attack...

Attack???
For the record, BuzzedLightyear made a 'humorous' comment on the technique in the video.
Statements that certain techniques have no positive effect do not constitute an attack.
We are both guilty of increasing the calibre in each salvo of the ensuing exchange. I do apologize to you and the readers for impugning your ethics.
PAX.

[jgriff]

Dan your friends experiences loosely follow mine where as I was big into the added steps in "fashioning a shot and preparing the basket" when I was first starting but now that I have been able to achieve a consistent level of espresso quality I have all but done away with everything beyond grind, dose, tamp then pull. When I did that my shots did get worse and a little less consistent (ok all over the map is more like it). But once I began to practice the simpler approach things began to improve. Long story short (if it's not to late) my shots now are every bit as even and delicious as my older "more prepared" shots and I'm not spending near the amount of time or fuss over getting there.

I've had the same experience as Tim. I tried the WDT, and I think it can certainly help consistency, but I never used it on a regular basis. I didn't want to add things to the ritual and make it any more complicated than it already is. No doubt that had an influence on my shots being all over the place at first, just as with Tim's. But I've now developed my own routine that has been giving me consistenly good (and mostly great) shots. And that's after six months with Anita.

Gentleman, can we call a truce to the heated debate on this topic? I think a lot of us really dislike anything that could be construed as a personal attack, and that's the primary reason I stopped reading alt.coffee posts. I've even noticed it has become more prevalent on CG. Let's keep HB as civil as possible, and agree to disagree. Cheers,

Justin

EDIT: I do think John Weiss deserves credit for creating WDT as a tool especially for new home baristas to use. I don't mean to discredit the technique in any way, just saying that I don't choose to use it.

[miKe mcKoffee]

On a busy bar, time is of the essence, and using an extra towel for cleaning the tamper takes quite a long time compared to a simple twist of the wrist during the tamp.

Depends on work style IMO and doesn't have to take quite a long time if any extra time at all. If you work with a towel either over the shoulder or looped through an apron it can be an automatic sweep of the tamper piston across the towel motion after tamping. Ok, might actually add maybe a second or fraction thereof. I choose this method whether it's actually really necessary 'cuz also finish tamp with a no/low pressure twist.

[ThePete]

I will tell you all my perspective on this. As a professional barista I don't find myself making spro at home nearly as often as yourselves, so I'm not going to pretend to be extremely versed in the WDT technique. I can tell you some reasons why I personally don't use it behind the bar, as well as ideas behind my dosing techniques at USBC. With the WDT, as some have posted earlier, it seems mainly a technique to overcome grinder flaws and the like. Even with a nice commercial grinder there can still be be similar problems with consistency in dosing. At Pt's we dose around 20 grams into a double basket. Our machines are LM Linea or GB5 depending on the store, but our techniques remain consistent. Since we dose pretty heavily, my first thought is that our grind is rather coarse and if you have played with your grinds much you may realize that the coarser the grind, the less it clumps. This, in combination with techniques such as spinning the pf, tapping, or settling the grinds by hand help us create consistent dosing. So in our circumstances there has been no need to use the WDT behind the bar since we train our employees to compensate in other ways when needed. I am a firm believer in the idea that there is no right or wrong way of doing things as long as desired flavor/product is achieved. I think that the Weiss Distribution Technique is completely valid. Is it the only way? No, but it certainly seems to work well and in the end that is what matters.

As far as tapping the pf during USBC, my reasoning for this was to achieve the best flavor possible as consistently as possible. I personally have changed my dosing technique tons of times and I still do. The biggest issue that I have been exposed to with tapping the pf when dosing is that there does seem to be a premature blonding of the shots from time to time. I discussed this with Barry Jarrett, and he is (and I am becoming so) under the impression that tapping and settling the fines is responsible for this anomaly. I am currently working on a consistent method of dosing 20 grams without tapping to settle the grounds. Hope this has helped, I'm always open to new ideas.

Pete

[cannonfodder]

Afternoon Pete, and welcome to HB.

I am a firm believer in the idea that there is no right or wrong way of doing things as long as desired flavor/product is achieved. I think that the Weiss Distribution Technique is completely valid. Is it the only way? No, but it certainly seems to work well and in the end that is what matters.

Pete

That pretty much sums it all up, thanks.