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Why don't pros use the WDT? More advanced distribution techniques? - Page 7

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Link to "Why don't pros use the WDT?  More advanced distribution techniques?"by Jasonian on Tue May 08, 2007 1:50 am

cafeIKE wrote:Other than mental focus, that is impossible to prove. A deep breath prior to dosing could have a more positive effect.

Tamper tapping is akin to grip flexing / knee twitching / rump wiggle often seen on a golf course:
It has absolutely no positive effect on the mechanical interaction between the club face and the ball.

Ditto 'polishing' the puck.

No amount of twitching will make crap coffee on a crap machine brew anything but.
Superfluous gyrations are most assuredly to the detriment of quality coffee brewed on a quality machine.

The quality of espresso anticipated is inversely proportional to tamper gyrations.
It's like Benihana. The show is fun. The food, sub par.

You think so? Have you ever seen the grouphead(s) of a busy bar after a morning rush of no-knockers?

It's not the initial shot we're talking about.. it's about how residual coffee will effect the next shot, and the shot after that, and so on.

Knocking keeps the machine cleaner longer. That's its only purpose. I hate doing it. I really do. But when I can get away with it without sacrificing shot quality, I will.

It has nothing to do with looks.
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Link to "Why don't pros use the WDT?  More advanced distribution techniques?"by mikep on Tue May 08, 2007 11:18 am

cafeIKE wrote:Ditto 'polishing' the puck.


I find the face of the tamper stays cleaner when I give it a little twist (very little pressure) before I remove it from the pf basket.

-mike "barry pointed that out once!"
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Link to "Why don't pros use the WDT?  More advanced distribution techniques?"by cafeIKE on Tue May 08, 2007 1:29 pm

Jasonian wrote:You think so? Have you ever seen the grouphead(s) of a busy bar after a morning rush of no-knockers?
Possibly once, in Italy, if memory serves.

Jasonian wrote:It's not the initial shot we're talking about.. it's about how residual coffee will effect the next shot, and the shot after that, and so on.
Do you wiggle flush with a blind basket after every shot?
If not, there's residual coffee lurking under the shower screen and between the screen and gasket.

Jasonian wrote:Knocking keeps the machine cleaner longer.
Once around with a grouphead brush every few shots will do as much without the dose destroying risk of an errant tap.

We're at HOME Barista. Based on your tapping raison d'etre, doing it at home is strictly 'wanna-be'

mikep wrote:I find the face of the tamper stays cleaner when I give it a little twist (very little pressure) before I remove it from the pf basket.
Wiping the piston with a towel after every tamp keeps it spotless.
No amount of puck polishing will remove oil / ultra-fines buildup.
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Link to "Why don't pros use the WDT?  More advanced distribution techniques?"by mikep on Tue May 08, 2007 5:08 pm

cafeIKE wrote:Wiping the piston with a towel after every tamp keeps it spotless.
No amount of puck polishing will remove oil / ultra-fines buildup.


To be honest I hadn't even considered the horror of the ultra-fines. I was just trying to keep more of the visible grounds in the basket, rather than the counter where my tamper sits. I will have to consider adding some superfluous gyrations with a towel to my routine. :twisted:
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Link to "Why don't pros use the WDT?  More advanced distribution techniques?"by Jasonian on Tue May 08, 2007 6:18 pm

mikep wrote:To be honest I hadn't even considered the horror of the ultra-fines. I was just trying to keep more of the visible grounds in the basket, rather than the counter where my tamper sits. I will have to consider adding some superfluous gyrations with a towel to my routine. :twisted:

Make sure you develop a flair in the act.. you know, so it doesn't look like an OCD as much as "part of the routine". :lol:
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Link to "Why don't pros use the WDT?  More advanced distribution techniques?"by Psyd on Tue May 08, 2007 7:06 pm

cafeIKE wrote:Other than mental focus, that is impossible to prove. A deep breath prior to dosing could have a more positive effect.


Mental focus will be important in anything you do, especially espresso. I've put beans into the doser, pulled the shot without the PF locked, pulled the shot into the drip-tray, and made quite a few other shot-killing mistakes while brewing the first of the day.
Having a routine makes the first doppio of the day as good as the evening's last.

cafeIKE wrote:Tamper tapping is akin to grip flexing / knee twitching / rump wiggle often seen on a golf course:
It has absolutely no positive effect on the mechanical interaction between the club face and the ball.
Ditto 'polishing' the puck.


Not true. These actions set up the shot. Loosening the hands, settling the feet, focusing the mind-body relationship, shaking off tension, and the repeatability factor all play a part on just how the club face impacts the ball. Or why would nearly every golfer on the face of the planet subscribe to these torments?

cafeIKE wrote:No amount of twitching will make crap coffee on a crap machine brew anything but.
Superfluous gyrations are most assuredly to the detriment of quality coffee brewed on a quality machine.


Could be anything from superstition to actual results. Your opinion is no more or less valid than any of the others expressed without any data to back them up.

cafeIKE wrote:The quality of espresso anticipated is inversely proportional to tamper gyrations.
It's like Benihana. The show is fun. The food, sub par.


Yahbut, the show isn't any worse in a far better restaurant. You've pointed out the situation, but you haven't uncovered the relationship. The food is marginal at Benihana because the cooks go through the 'superfluous gyrations'? Really? So, the food would be better if they just stood there and cooked?
I think that you may have the causal relationship in your analogy a bit skewed. The food is marginal because they have discovered that you can dazzle 'em with bullshit, so you don't have to pay for the brilliance in the dish. The quality of the end dish has very little to do with the amount of gyrations that the chefs go through.

I'm not sure where I sit on tamper tapping. I'd given it up, and there is a bit of channeling going on under the naked nowadays. I may try taking it up again and see where that gets me.
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Link to "Why don't pros use the WDT?  More advanced distribution techniques?"by cafeIKE on Tue May 08, 2007 7:09 pm

mikep wrote:To be honest I hadn't even considered the horror of the ultra-fines.
So I can assume the oil and fines build up all day / week / month long.
Must make for quite a 'polish' with that 'sandpaper' :P

The only way I know to absolutely prevent lifting the surface of the puck with a dirty, sticky tamper is to keep the tamper clean. Or are there PTFE booties for tamper pistons that I missed? :lol:
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Link to "Why don't pros use the WDT?  More advanced distribution techniques?"by cafeIKE on Tue May 08, 2007 7:19 pm

Psyd wrote:The food is marginal because they have discovered that you can dazzle 'em with bullshit, so you don't have to pay for the brillance in the dish.

Substitute 'espresso' for 'food', 'cup' for 'dish' and you've described about 98/100ths of the shops.
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Link to "Why don't pros use the WDT?  More advanced distribution techniques?"by BuzzedLightyear on Wed May 09, 2007 8:42 am

Jasonian

I am sorry about the mocking of your tamping technique, it was merely a joke. I did not think it would start a personal attack on you by others.

anyway I am very intrigued by your pours without using wdt. however, would your method work with a doserless grinder?
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Link to "Why don't pros use the WDT?  More advanced distribution techniques?"by cafeIKE on Wed May 09, 2007 1:21 pm

BuzzedLightyear wrote:Jasonian

I am sorry about the mocking of your tamping technique, it was merely a joke. I did not think it would start a personal attack on you by others.

anyway I am very intrigued by your pours without using wdt. however, would your method work with a doserless grinder?

<Edit : Removed reference to Jasonian's altruism.>

I had my first espresso almost 40 years ago with an Italian girl friend :

First-a, you grind-a da caffe
Next-a, you fill-a da basket
Next-a, you make-a da room
Next-a, you pull-a da shot

Nothing has changed.

I have a doserless Macap MC4. Grind directly into the basket in the PF with a yogurt cup funnel cut down to about 1¼in. [This is the one benefit derived from trying the WDT for several months.] Gently shake PF side to side to level grounds. Remove funnel. Down dose with curved tool or your crooked finger to 'declump'. Lightly rap PF once or twice VERTICALLY on counter to level the coffee. 5~10# tamp, NO taps, NO twist. Lock PF and IMMEDIATELY start pump. Enjoy. 8) No Charge.
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Link to "Why don't pros use the WDT?  More advanced distribution techniques?"by Psyd on Wed May 09, 2007 4:46 pm

cafeIKE wrote:Jason is a professional who charges customers to teach them to make espresso.
It's in his interest to make it seem more complicated than necessary.


Unless you can prove that intent, you have just made a claim that a judge would likely consider inflammatory, provocative, defamatory, libelous, and actionable.
Espresso is complicated, your Italian girlfriend notwithstanding, as 99% of the posts on these fora will demonstrate. Most of them are on how to get a good esresso, and I gotta say, very few of them would be helped with:
"First-a, you grind-a da caffe
Next-a, you fill-a da basket
Next-a, you make-a da room
Next-a, you pull-a da shot "
I mean, truly, this is what most people do, and quite a few of them end up with dreck in a cup. Then they come here. Would you simply tell them to repeat the above process until the results changed? I think that there is a colloquial definition of insanity joke in there somewhere, but I haven't the wit to extract it.
I'm glad that it's so simple for you, I really am. Now if you could only wrap your head around the fact that it's a bit of a struggle for nearly every other one of us on these pages, you'd be able to be a bit more helpful.
Really, as I ponder Jason's posts, I often think, "Jason teaches folk to make espresso for a living. Why would he share all of his knowledge, experience, and visual aides here for free?" The only answer that I've come to is, because he's a really nice guy.
You could take a page.
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Link to "Why don't pros use the WDT?  More advanced distribution techniques?"by cafeIKE on Wed May 09, 2007 6:26 pm

Psyd wrote:I mean, truly, this is what most people do, and quite a few of them end up with dreck in a cup.
Agreed if you change "quite a few" to "most" and make the reference to tamper twiddlers, professional or otherwise. :twisted:

Anyone reading who thinks espresso is complicated, please do not invite me for dinner. :lol:
Several won't already. :shock:

Assuming adequate and non-defective gear, ignoring temperature and pressure, if the "First-a..." method fails:
1 - the coffee is crap - easy to rectify
2 - the grind is incorrect - two choices
3 - the dose is poor - make sure it's level and try more or less

If someone can't handle a simple iterative loop on 2 and 3, I trust they don't drive or vote. :roll: They may not be pulling gShots, but I shouldn't be clamoring for a cuspidor either, which is most often the case after some 'pro' has dazzled me with his dosing dexterity. As the missus once remarked, "What DOES he think he's doing?"

Earlier this year I spent some time in Nice and Cannes, hanging about with Italians. The only bad shot I had using the "First-a..." method was when someone made the mistake of thinking me American and ordered espresso with sugar. :cry:

Call me a cynic, but the truly "selfless" do not include a link to a commercial web page.

"Leo Durocher"
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Link to "Why don't pros use the WDT?  More advanced distribution techniques?"by Jasonian on Wed May 09, 2007 7:25 pm

cafeIKE wrote:
Psyd wrote:I mean, truly, this is what most people do, and quite a few of them end up with dreck in a cup.
Agreed if you change "quite a few" to "most" and make the reference to tamper twiddlers, professional or otherwise. :twisted:

Anyone reading who thinks espresso is complicated, please do not invite me for dinner. :lol:
Several won't already. :shock:

Assuming adequate and non-defective gear, ignoring temperature and pressure, if the "First-a..." method fails:
1 - the coffee is crap - easy to rectify
2 - the grind is incorrect - two choices
3 - the dose is poor - make sure it's level and try more or less

If someone can't handle a simple iterative loop on 2 and 3, I trust they don't drive or vote. :roll: They may not be pulling gShots, but I shouldn't be clamoring for a cuspidor either, which is most often the case after some 'pro' has dazzled me with his dosing dexterity. As the missus once remarked, "What DOES he think he's doing?"

Earlier this year I spent some time in Nice and Cannes, hanging about with Italians. The only bad shot I had using the "First-a..." method was when someone made the mistake of thinking me American and ordered espresso with sugar. :cry:

Call me a cynic, but the truly "selfless" do not include a link to a commercial web page.

"Leo Durocher"

Okay. You're a cynic.

Why did I start espressotrainer.com?

Let's see. There is zero good coffee where I live. None. I get tired of telling people "my apartment?" when they ask where they should go for a good cup.

I've worked at two different shops here, and spent more effort and energy on butting heads with the owners while pushing for quality than I actually spent on the work itself.

How many people do you know who will take advice on how to run their own business from someone they hired at near minimum wage?

How many people do you know who will take advice from someone who specializes in training and consulting for that particular field?

I'll let you do the math and figure out the difference.

I tried to help improve the local coffee culture from the inside. It didn't work. If nothing else, it just made it more difficult.

I don't make hardly a thing from ET.com. I do have another job that I rely on for income. ET.com is just an attempt to help raise the standards locally in my ~200K population college down.

If you think espresso is as simple as those three variables, then you, my friend, have a long long way to go. Sure.. you can get passable espresso that way. But you will never get a God shot that way, and you certainly won't be impressing any competition level baristi or their customers.

It's the attitude of "good enough" that you're so adamant about that's the primary problem I face when trying to improve the level of quality. As Chris has said already. If it really is just that simple, then why do I cringe every time I taste an espresso from a new coffee house? Why are so many people getting it wrong if they're following your method to a T? (which, they are)

There is more physics, more chemistry, and more thermodynamics going on in a single extraction of espresso than most are willing to try to wrap their head around for something as trivial as coffee. For me, and pretty much everyone else on this board it seems, espresso is something special. It's not something to be taken for granted when it's done right.

You can be pissy about my posts for whatever reason you care to invent. My link is there because it's part of my association with "coffee". Not because I'm trying to train anyone here. Nobody here needs anything I have to offer. If they're here, more than likely, if they don't already know, they can pretty easily figure it out on their own.

Have I tried to sell anything to anyone here, or anywhere else in this network of specialty coffee forums?

Did I get paid for running a milk frothing workshop at the TX Jam, or for giving an espresso seminar at the AZ Jam? quite the opposite, actually. I had to pay to get there, and I didn't get paid a thing... unless you want to count the waving of the attendance fee payment.

You are entitled to your beliefs, though you should know what you're saying before you say it. Personal attacks aren't something I would expect to see on H-B. Debates, yes. Arguments over specific techniques or methods, perhaps. Personal attacks because you have some idea you created on your own are something else.
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Link to "Why don't pros use the WDT?  More advanced distribution techniques?"by HB on Wed May 09, 2007 11:20 pm

Jasonian wrote:Personal attacks aren't something I would expect to see on H-B. Debates, yes. Arguments over specific techniques or methods, perhaps.

Exactly. Guidelines for productive online discussion sums it up: Be respectful... Help raise the discussion level. Thanks gentlemen.
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Link to "Why don't pros use the WDT?  More advanced distribution techniques?"by Psyd on Thu May 10, 2007 4:09 pm

cafeIKE wrote:
Psyd wrote:I mean, truly, this is what most people do, and quite a few of them end up with dreck in a cup.


Assuming adequate and non-defective gear, ignoring temperature and pressure, if the "First-a..." method fails:
1 - the coffee is crap - easy to rectify
2 - the grind is incorrect - two choices
3 - the dose is poor - make sure it's level and try more or less

If someone can't handle a simple iterative loop on 2 and 3, I trust they don't drive or vote.


Yet there are plenty of them that do both.
Look, even in your simple instructions you left out two extremely important variable adjustments, and a very large component of quality, and then complicated your very simple method by inserting a huge number of possible changes. Even if one were to suggest that these were the limit of what to do to get good espresso, the number of shots that it would take to see which of the above possible changes would have a positive effect, as opposed to a negative effect, on the outcome would be, at minimum, a few dozen. It's starting to get more and more complicated, even if we don't start talking about tamping techniques.
OTOH, I do notice changes in the cup depending on what wild gesticulations and genuflections and gyrations I perform in the process. If it makes it better every time I do it, shouldn't I do it every time?
Horses for courses, and each to his own. I think that what we are saying is that the simple grind-dose-tamp-pull method can get you a mediocre to good shot of espresso on a regular everyday basis. If that's what makes you happy, then fine, go nuts brother. What I don't understand is why you'd take exception to those of us who want to take the espresso we get to that next step, and are willing to experiment with ALL of the variables, ad infinitum, to squeeze every last bit of greatness from every gram of grounds that we can.
I've always said that if Folger's makes you happy, drink it. There is no reason to spend a grand on a coffee machine and a buck and ounce on coffee if you really like Folger's. You only have to go the extra step if you're looking for something a bit better.
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Link to "Why don't pros use the WDT?  More advanced distribution techniques?"by cafeIKE on Thu May 10, 2007 9:54 pm

Lifted from Problems with dosing and distribution. Emphasis added. Written much more eloquently than I ever could.

lblampman wrote:I'm a minimalist; I figure if I can't grind, tamp, and pull a shot without a bunch of other procedures in the way the dude on the end of the portafilter handle needs to get better. I also don't care much what the puck looks like when I'm done (unless it really went to soup or cratered), if the shot pulled well and it tastes good in the cup I'm good. I also don't worry about the dispersion screen impression; I always got one on my Silvia* and it doesn't seem to bother my AP** now. I still think consistency is the key; if you can pull bad shot after bad shot but they're all bad in exactly the same way you're doing better than someone getting superb shots mixed with horrible shots (unless they're testing). Do the same thing time after time and change one thing to see what the result is. [For instance, I think the dispersion screen thing isn't an issue for me because I consistently dose and tamp the same way and I suspect in the beginning I made adjustments for whatever affect dosing as I do had on the situation. If I try to dose down now I have to change the amount of grounds in the basket, likely the grind, and maybe even my tamping. That's too many changes in my opinion (at least for me), especially when I get shots I like with no fuss.]

I'll add one more thing that I've not seen mentioned...time. It just takes time to acclimate to a new setup. I don't care how long you've been driving, when you jump in a car you've never been in before there's a sense of disorientation. That goes away with time and the more you drive that car the happier your subconscience is and the more intuitive things become. Try as you might with your new machine, no matter how analytically you approach the thing, you'll do better and better as the "sense" of the machine embeds itself into your brain and you start making unconscience adjustments to tweak things; or you instantly recognize, even before it happens, that things just aren't "right" on a particular shot. I can tell the moment the tamper hits the grounds and I start to lightly press down whether or not my dose was correct; it's not because I'm focusing on (or obsessing on) the dose, its just a motor skill that's become so ingrained that if even the slightest thing is wrong I get a little warning sense.


In short, improvements are falsely accredited to tapping, twitching and twirling rather than other more mundane causes like muscle memory. The danger in adding changes, ad infinitum, is one is forever on a roller coaster of re/pro-gression.

Technique honed over a long time using First-a... until it's right allows one to quickly get to the root of any issues.

Otherwise:
- tapping too hard, not hard enough
- twirling in the wrong direction, lifting too soon
- half tamp too low, too full

With the 3 elements in First-a... there are 8 possible scenarios (2^3). Add tapping, twirling and twitching and there are 64 (2^6). Adding temperature and pressure increases the numbers to 32 and 256 respectively.

I may recant if someone can provide a paper with anywhere near the rigor of the previously mentioned Lattice Boltzmann model for coffee percolation for the benefits of tapping, twirling and twitching. :wink:

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Link to "Why don't pros use the WDT?  More advanced distribution techniques?"by cannonfodder on Thu May 10, 2007 11:06 pm

I find the number of gyrations one must do changes from kit to kit. Some machines and or grinders (or should I say all) have a quirk or two that need addressed to maximize the product in the cup. Some are as simple as a light tap to settle grinds, others require a temperature surfing regime that would make some of my daughters night before Christmas toy assembly instructions look like child's play.

I have actual had to teach myself to stop doing many of the things I use to do with my previous kit. All I do is grind, dose, level off the top of the mound, smash it with my fancy coffee hammer and pull my shot and I am happy.
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Link to "Why don't pros use the WDT?  More advanced distribution techniques?"by cafeIKE on Fri May 11, 2007 2:01 pm

Psyd wrote:Now if you could only wrap your head around the fact that it's a bit of a struggle for nearly every other one of us on these pages, you'd be able to be a bit more helpful.

It's my contention that the struggle may be self-induced by failing to master the basest fundamentals and willy nilly adding difficult to repeat, potentially destuctive movements. Martial arts practitioners countenance 3,000 or more repetitions to perfect a movement. At 4 shots a day, that's TWO YEARS MINIMUM.

For example:
Yesterday, shots 2 & 3 were almost sinkable. The coffee however, was 8 or 9 days old, so MAKE NO CHANGES.
Today shot 1 was discarded w/o tasting. New roast of SO washed Ethiopian. Forgot to back out the grinder. :roll: :oops:
Shot 2, OK but a bit slow. Back out grinder another 1/2 rotation.
Shot 3 :!: :!: gShot No 7 :!: :!: No taps, twirls, twitches or shimmy-shimmy shakes.
Shot 4, merely incredible.

Tomorrow, I won't expect the shots to be any more than :evil: "passable" :evil: "mediocre" :evil: espresso and will just-a First-a... as I anticipate No 8.

cannonfodder wrote:All I do is grind, dose, level off the top of the mound, smash it with my fancy coffee hammer and pull my shot and I am happy.

fWhew! For a while, I thought I was the only one who pulled "passable" "mediocre" espresso. :lol:

{NOTE : Admittedly lame attempt to inject a little levity} :wink:
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Link to "Why don't pros use the WDT?  More advanced distribution techniques?"by Canuck on Fri May 11, 2007 3:08 pm

cafeIKE wrote:...someone made the mistake of thinking me American and ordered espresso with sugar. :cry:


I was just reading Ken David's espresso book the other day and he mentioned that Italians (in Italy I presume) usually take their espresso with sugar. Are you saying that because they thought you were American they served yours with sugar? Wouldn't they anyway because that's what they usually do.

I don't really care who takes with or without sugar, just wondering if Mr. Davids was incorrect in his assumption (so I can take it up with him next time I have him over for tea :P ).
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Link to "Why don't pros use the WDT?  More advanced distribution techniques?"by cafeIKE on Fri May 11, 2007 3:37 pm

Canuck wrote:Are you saying that because they thought you were American they served yours with sugar? Wouldn't they anyway because that's what they usually do.


His response when I nearly spat it out : "I thought all Americans took sugar in the caffe" No one else had sugar, so :?: :?:
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