Why don't pros use the WDT? More advanced distribution techniques? - Page 6

[TimEggers]

Actually, I think we agree entirely. My first post was a criticism of doserless grinders, not the WDT:

Yes sir I suppose we do. It's funny because I am just discovering the "proper" use of the doser. Like you have said Marshall a fast thwack and attention to where the grounds are going in my basket combined with my convex tamper have really surprised me with exceptional results. On the other hand I have noticed that if I become the least bit lazy (or get occupied elsewhere) things tend to fall apart very rapidly. But yes with my Mazzer Super Jolly and careful attention I have found that I do not necessarily need the WDT.

Again to the others watching this conversation please don't take that as "Tim says not to use the WDT" let me be the first to tell you that without the WDT I would not be to the level that I am. The WDT can make it far easier when using a dosered grinder to attain smooth even flow (if you are new to home espresso). For newbies I encourage you to use it ( especially if your grinder is doserless like John's ). Get used to seeing the flow and experiencing the tastes. This will allow you to practice and attain sufficient consistency then you can experiment from there to see what else might work for you.

I also don't want to offer the impression that I find the WDT to be a crutch, cheat or something only newbies do, in my opinion it truly isn't. It can be an integral part of espresso making if you want/need it to be. It's a valid method for achieving better espresso and that is what we are all here for. It's been said over and over again it's personal preference and as my preferences may be changing (or not) I am very thankful for the WDT and the great strides I have made using it.

Does the master barista need the WDT (with a doser)? Probably not, but we are not all masters (especially me).

[Jasonian]

I'm curious is if those who don't use the WDT could post some videos of their typical extractions (with a bottomless portafilter). I ask because I have experimented with using the WDT and without and my flow is always more even with the WDT so I am going to continue to use it (at least for a while). The real kicker is the flavor, even without the WDT the shots were pretty good but there was a noticeable flavor change (and body change) when using the WDT. I'd love to be able to compare others non-WDT pours to what I have seen coming out of my own portafilter.

Any takers?

You've seen video of some of my pulls.

None ever received the WDM treatment.

If you insist, though, I don't mind taking more.

[TimEggers]

You've seen video of some of my pulls.

None ever received the WDM treatment.

If you insist, though, I don't mind taking more.

No thanks Jason that won't be needed, thanks for the clarification though. Looking at a video one can't tell if the user did in fact use the WDT or not. I was only hoping to see some videos of non-WDT pours to compare to what I'm seeing on my machine because my non-WDT pours did act a little differently than my WDT pours. Again thanks for the clarification, I have seen your shots and it's good to know that what I was seeing wasn't a reflection of WDT per say.

[RapidCoffee]

You've seen video of some of my pulls. None ever received the WDM treatment. If you insist, though, I don't mind taking more.

Please consider posting a video. It would be perfectly in keeping with the original poster's question and title of this thread.

Besides, I'm curious about the "new "super fast" distribution method" that you alluded to on CG.

[Marshall]

In the most recent (4/30/07) Portafilter.net podcast, Ellie Hudson Matuszak talks about how five different baristas used Black Cat in a single competition, and none of the judges suspected they were using the same blend. Why? They had been experimenting with different grinds, tamping pressures and resting periods for the coffee, and so each managed to make different music with the same instrument.

What do we learn from this? There is no one best method, and small changes can make big differences in the cup.

[cafeIKE]

There is no one best method, and small changes can make big differences in the cup.

Amen

[Jasonian]

Please consider posting a video. It would be perfectly in keeping with the original poster's question and title of this thread.

Besides, I'm curious about the "new "super fast" distribution method" that you alluded to on CG.

haha.

It's nothing special, or "revolutionary", so I'd feel silly posting it as an end in itself. It's just really fast, and not a lot else. Very messy as well, so probably not so good for most HB's.

At home, it's only over the sink.

I'll get one up for you soon.

[TimEggers]

I believe it's only fair since I requested some videos to show some of my own. So here are two shots that I pulled back to back and they are pretty representative of my ability and shot performance since experimenting without the WDT. Of course I welcome any comments/advice.

[gvideo]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8493200471135201788[/gvideo]
[gvideo]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6740538925722384668&hl=en[/gvideo]

[luca]

Whilst there didn't seem to be much channeling on those shots, they did seem to be ludicrously short. It's hard to tell with internet videos, but they might also have been blonding towards the end.

[Jasonian]

I agree with Luca. Those looked REALLY short.

Look for some in the next week from me. I'm short on time lately.

[TimEggers]

Yeah I kind of thought that too when I pulled the shots. I've since dialed the grinder a little coarser. I still have much practice to do, but man the espresso sure is good.

I won't post any follow up videos as I don't want to change the topic of discussion into one of shot diagnosis but I thank you guys very much.

[Jasonian]

Please consider posting a video. It would be perfectly in keeping with the original poster's question and title of this thread.

Besides, I'm curious about the "new "super fast" distribution method" that you alluded to on CG.

Just for you, John.

The "super fast distribution method". As I've said.. it's nothing special. It's just quick.

It's mostly already distributed before the topical treatment. Remember, "Focus on the landing". This is a fairly light dose, despite the appearance of the mound. The grounds are pretty well fluffed.

Tamping. It's a flat tamper.


The resulting pour. It's out of focus... sorry about that. You get the idea.


No WDT. Fewer accessories. Less time. Great espresso.

This is just to show what I do. I don't like the WDT, as I see it as an unnecessary step that doesn't really do much for my espresso except encourage fines migration towards the bottom. If the WDT works best for you, use it.

[Jasonian]

Whoa.. I didn't realize the pull was so dark in the shot.

I'll record another one tonight when the lighting is better.

[BuzzedLightyear]

no wonder you use the super fast distribution method and do not like the wdt, you do not have any time with the long click clack patty wack tamping method

[Jasonian]

What can I say, I like a clean grouphead. For a long run on the bar, it keeps the overall quality higher than no knocking at all.

Of course, this is on my home setup, I think it's better to keep things consistent.

I have all the time in the world at home. It's not a matter of time. It's a matter of, "does this really improve the end result". For me, it really doesn't.

The distribution method was sort of a joke... and then I realized that it was actually pretty effective. So I started using it.

[RapidCoffee]

This is just to show what I do. I don't like the WDT, as I see it as an unnecessary step that doesn't really do much for my espresso except encourage fines migration towards the bottom. If the WDT works best for you, use it.

Thanks for posting your video. Along the same lines, this instructional dosing video from Cafe Grumpy was recently pointed out on CG. Vince Piccolo basically doses straight into the PF and smashes down the top of the puck - and he makes it work. Italian baristas are notorious for tamping upwards, using the tamper attached to the grinder - and they make it work. There are many roads to Rome.

But keep in mind that a professional barista may pull more shots in one busy day than many of us amateurs pour in a month. Techniques that work best for the pro are not necessarily the best for the home barista. IMHO most "super-fast" puck preparation methods fall into that category.

The fines migration theory was proposed a few weeks ago by Teme. AFAIK it's just a theory - one that will take puck slicing followed by particle sizing to verify.

[cafeIKE]

The fines migration theory was proposed a few weeks ago by Teme. AFAIK it's just a theory - one that will take puck slicing followed by particle sizing to verify.

You may find this interesting on Lattice Boltzmann model for coffee percolation

[RapidCoffee]

You may find this interesting on Lattice Boltzmann model for coffee percolation

Yes indeed! Some observations on a casual first reading: a) impressive mathematical modeling; b) disappointingly few physical measurements to support the model, other than volume of liquid per unit time (Fig. 3-4; note that Fig. 5 is a simulation, and what "coffee concentration" means, is anyone's guess); and c) some simplifying assumptions are of questionable validity.

Love to see more work like this. How the heck did you find this paper, anyway?

[cafeIKE]

For a long run on the bar, it keeps the overall quality higher than no knocking at all.

Other than mental focus, that is impossible to prove. A deep breath prior to dosing could have a more positive effect.

Tamper tapping is akin to grip flexing / knee twitching / rump wiggle often seen on a golf course:
It has absolutely no positive effect on the mechanical interaction between the club face and the ball.

Ditto 'polishing' the puck.

No amount of twitching will make crap coffee on a crap machine brew anything but.
Superfluous gyrations are most assuredly to the detriment of quality coffee brewed on a quality machine.

The quality of espresso anticipated is inversely proportional to tamper gyrations.
It's like Benihana. The show is fun. The food, sub par.

[cafeIKE]

How the heck did you find this paper, anyway?

alt.coffee post, IIRC